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Federal Judge Limits Schneider Case To Four Overdose Deaths
A federal judge reduced the government's case against a Haysville doctor whose clinic has been linked to 59 overdose deaths. Reporter: Deb FarrisEmail Address: deb.farris@kake.com |
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Posted by: me
Location: wichita
on Feb 10, 2009 at 03:40 PM
Barbara-this is for you. What's the matter? Can't find a real Dr. to work for now? I wasn't a patient or an employee of this clinic. I'm angry because this pill pushing quack nearly killed my mother in law! Get a life and quit praising these scumbags. I suppose you're a member of PRN too with Tami. You both seem to only know how to criticize anyone who doesn't agree with you.
Posted by: me
Location: wichita
on Feb 10, 2009 at 03:36 PM
Tami what is up with you?? Besides that fact that you have something to do with the PRN. I checked out their site and your name is everywhere there too. You did answer the question of why now that she is off of all of the meds that Schnieder had her on she is pain free. I believe it was the part where you said "People when properly (aggressivly) treated......". I think the key word here is properly.
Posted by: anonymous
on Feb 9, 2009 at 10:15 AM
Tami, I accepted the meds because I TRUSTED Dr S. I didn't have any reason not to trust him. After 2 years, I did fire him. What is your obsession with this case anyway? You always have some rude come back for anyone who wants to express their opinion. I am older and much wiser now. I learned that you can't trust all physicians and I learned to take responsibility for my life. There is many patients out there who fully trust their doctor's like I did. It's a very sad world when you can't rely on your doctor and have to try and treat your illness on your own. I will pray for you.
Posted by: Tami
Location: ND
on Feb 8, 2009 at 06:05 PM
Me said,"Dr. Schneider wasn't tapering anyone off of their meds. He was continuing to give them prescriptions month after month. The family memeber I spoke about is now off of all of the meds that Dr. Schneider had her on and is no longer having the pain she had before. How do you explain that." Do you know anything about the physiology of pain? WHY would the good Dr.taper patients off their meds if their condition didn't warrant it? Chronic pain is a disease and the medications help control the pain, and arrest it's destructive and lethal progression. And guess what? People when properly (aggressively) treated at the onset can heal and no longer require the life giving, life sustaining medications.
Posted by: Tami
Location: ND
on Feb 8, 2009 at 05:53 PM
Anon, who does have ALL the facts at this point in time? Why did you accept the pain medication if you did not want it in the first place? Why didn't you fire him and move on? Take responsibility for your own life and actions.
Posted by: anonymous
Location: wichita
on Feb 8, 2009 at 05:17 PM
Barbara, You need to get a life too. You obviously don't have all the facts. Yes, I went to Dr S and told him about my severe pain. I did not go there to get pain pills, I went to find out why I was in chronic pain. Not 1 test done over the years I went there. No x-rays, ct scans, mri's, no referrals to a specialist, just scripts for large doses of pain pills and muscle relaxers. I trusted him and excepted that was the "best" treatment for me. My new doc told me that pain was a sign something is wrong. He found what was causing it and after physical therapy, epidurel's and surgery, I am able to live a life without pain pills. I was not a "fired" patient, just a patient that trusted his family doctor. I DO know what I am talking about and so does my family. Just be thankful that it didn't happen to you!
Posted by: Barbara
on Feb 7, 2009 at 10:19 PM
He went by what his patients told him to what was wrong with them....You guys took advantage of him...and most likey all you that are angry were fired patients or employees that were fire for something you had done!!! And I know how some of you guys were fired..you double dipping idiots...that thought you could never get caught...So in others words if you do NOT know what you are talking about...get a life!!! and quit BASHING DR. SCHNEIDER AND LINDA!!!!
Posted by: Barbara
on Feb 7, 2009 at 10:13 PM
"To Me"...you are not making any sence.." a prescription for 30 pills and then turning around and giving them another one in two weeks. If the pills were supposed to last 30 days and he knew that why did he turn around and give them another 30 within two weeks? "...If you are given 30 pills most say take every 4-6 hours for your pain..if you have the CHRONIC PAIN as you say hen you would take your allowed 6 pills ...right...ok now do your math...6 into 30 would be 5...right...so that your pain pills would be gone in 5 days..so if you are still having pain he would prescribe you another 30...booh ya...that is how you get another script!!!! IF YOU take your pills the way you are suppose to there would be no problems!!! and for all you people saying he never tried any other soultions to help you with your pain..what a lie..I know he did...I worked there!!!! How many of you ever kept the appointments that were made for you to a specialist or physical therapy etc...He had trust in his pts.
Posted by: Anonymous
Location: Topeka
on Feb 7, 2009 at 08:24 PM
Wait till this man can defend himself in court. There must have been a good reason for the judge to limit the trial to four deaths. We'll never know until this thing goes to trial and we're able to hear his defense. Remember, despite what the prosecution has pumped in to the media: This man is innocent until proven guilty.
Posted by: me
Location: wichita
on Feb 4, 2009 at 11:21 PM
Anonymous-Yes I hear myself loud & clear. Do you?? Schneider obviously didn't know how to deal with addicts. People went to him because they knew he handed out drugs like candy. He also catered to low income people with no insurance. It is the Doctor's responsibility to monitor what medications he is giving his patients. He shouldn't have been giving someone a prescription for 30 pills and then turning around and giving them another one in two weeks. If the pills were supposed to last 30 days and he knew that why did he turn around and give them another 30 within two weeks? He doesn't have to be psychic to know that is too much. He liked that money that he was making everytime he wrote a new prescription. BTW who are you to determine someone's intelligence by what they write? You can't be too intelligent yourself or you wouldn't be so eager to defend this guy.
Posted by: Anonymous
Location: Wichita
on Feb 3, 2009 at 03:10 PM
To "me": Do. You. Hear. Yourself? "Maybe the patients whose doctors no longer wanted to see them just didn't want to continue feeding their addictions." You think their doctors didn't know how to deal with addicts? Like they would pawn them off on another doctor knowing they were addicts? Yeah. And pigs fly. Jeezus. Listen to yourself. If you don't have anything intelligent to say, don't say anything. And yes, there were patients being tapered down...the ones who were personally responsible for themselves and intelligent enough to say, "Doctor, I don't need my (pain pills, anxiety medication, depression meds-whatever) anymore." My God. People, wake up. It's called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILIY. If I don't need the pain pills anymore, I say so. If you keep taking them and you don't need them, you may have a problem. That is a behavioral problem for which you may need help. Most doctors depend on the patient to let him know how they feel. He isn't psychic.
Posted by: david
Location: haysville
on Feb 2, 2009 at 11:07 PM
for all you folks out there talking bull about the schneiders, let me tell you i think that they should drop all the charges and dr. schneider needs to sue the federal,state,and county for for faults statements i think myself if he would win the lawsuit he needs to buy a box of chocolates for the ones that died and abused the drugs i hope to see him win his case and i also was a patient of his outstanding dr.
Posted by: me
Location: wichita
on Feb 1, 2009 at 11:36 PM
Anonymous at 11:02 maybe the patients whose doctors no longer wanted to see them just didn't want to continue feeding their addictions. Dr. Schneider wasn't tapering anyone off of their meds. He was continuing to give them prescriptions month after month. The family memeber I spoke about is now off of all of the meds that Dr. Schneider had her on and is no longer having the pain she had before. How do you explain that. You people think this man is a god. He isn't.
Posted by: Anonymous
on Feb 1, 2009 at 07:06 AM
If Schneider's were seeing patients with that severe of problems, they ought to be lucky they aren't being charged with assisted suicide for the 59 people he's linked to.
Posted by: Anonymous
on Jan 31, 2009 at 11:02 PM
Mimi, Dr. Schneider was seeing patients in end-stage diseases and chronic/intractable pain sent by their doctors who no longer wanted to treat them. They needed meds in increasing amounts and were beyond PT, neurotransmitters, steroids and NSAIDS. Yes, CP/IP does only get worse. These patients were "worse." Tylenol in large amounts over long periods of time causes liver disease. Steroids over a long period of time can cause you to become diabetic. I am diabetic due to steroids. My best friend is in end-stage liver disease. Ask your doctor. The Powers that be do not want you to know that opiates are the safest thing for pain; not filtered through your liver or kidneys. Minimal side effects. Dependence and addiction are two different things. Most patients who take opiates do not become addicted. Addiction is a behavioral problem. Over time your body may become dependent on opiates. If need be, you can be tapered off safely. Each year, 16,500 people die from NSAIDS due to bleeding ulcers.
Posted by: Anonymous
Location: Topeka
on Jan 29, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Mominks, how can you say that people deserve to go to prison when they haven't even been given the chance to defend themselves? Wait till they are given their day in court. You'll be amazed at how the government has screwed up in prosecuting this case. If the opinions you've been hearing were true, I wouldn't be helping to defend them on the internet. All I ask is that you don't tear them apart based on opinion. Wait for the truth to be revealed.
Posted by: Mimi
Location: Wichita
on Jan 29, 2009 at 08:23 AM
To "Me" at 11:31 p.m. You are absolutely correct! All he was doing was feeding their "addictions" so they would come back for more and more. The more patients he saw, the more money he made. Narcotics and Benzodiazepines (Xanax, Ativan, etc) are VERY addictive, even if only used for a week or two. The classical version of the Hippocratic Oath states "I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect". The modern version states something similar "I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug". There's a reason why the oath is taken. And to jim at 11:28 - Belot may be an "intelligent" man, but he's making a very "STUPID" mistake by taking 55 INNOCENT LIVES out of the trial. I can guarantee he knew people were abusing pain killers. It was his responsibility to recognize that and stop prescribing them ... PERIOD!
Posted by: Me
Location: Wichita
on Jan 28, 2009 at 11:31 PM
These two NEED to be put in jail. I have a family memeber who was a patient of this "doctor" if you can call him that. She did have chronic pain in her back and was being treated with oxy in ADDITION to lortabs. "Dr." Schneider also prescribed her 1 mg of xanax for anxiety 3 times per day on top of all that. That is enough medication to knock out a horse, and this was a woman who barely weighed 100 lbs. Does anyone remember what happened toHeath Ledger?? A normal dosage of xanax is .25 mg. All this guy was doing was keeping people dependent on drugs so he could keep them coming in and making more money off of them. I hope they both rot in jail.
Posted by: jim
Location: Wichita
on Jan 28, 2009 at 11:28 PM
I know Monti, he is an intellegent, educated, honest,personable guy. The "Doc" didn't shove the pills down the throats of these people. True, some didn't use them correctly (and the "Doc" probably knew it) but the fact is some folks abuse drugs... that's as easy as it is. I (or you) are not privy to most of the facts. Since I wasn't there or know any of them, I cannot judge them. That's why we have judges!! I support Mr. Belot. He is much smarter than me, and has a job most of us could not do.
Posted by: Mimi
Location: Wichita
on Jan 28, 2009 at 08:39 PM
mominks - I totally agree with you!! I also suffer from chronic/intractable pain. Yes, I take pain medication, but I also have a neurostimulator implanted and have steroids injected into my tailbone and lumbar regions. Each Schneider deserves 59 life sentences. CLIFF - I hope you NEVER have to suffer from chronis pain, and knowing that as you get older it only gets worse along the way. For over 16 years I suffered from terrible back pain and never asked for anything stonger than Tylenol. I finally had to give in and ask for something stronger when I could no longer get out of bed in the morning and chase after my then 2 year old daughter. Those that don't suffer from chronic pain do not have a clue what they are saying. Do I like having to take meds? No!! But, I have to in order to function. I'm only 35 and will battle chronic pain for a very long time to come.
Posted by: bbob
Location: haysville
on Jan 28, 2009 at 08:27 PM
God bless you Dr. Schneider you are a kind and caring man.Without your compassionate and and tireless efforts I would never have been able to return to the normal life I once again live.God help those ignorant" lynch mob" types
Posted by: mominks
Location: butler county
on Jan 28, 2009 at 06:28 PM
Anonymous - I DO know what I am talking about, because I have experienced chronic pain. As I stated, I am grateful that my doctor worked with me to ensure that I didn't become dependent on pain meds. I went to physical therapy and learned other methods to deal with pain. YOU sound like you are related to the Schneiders. Have fun visiting them in prison, because that is where they're going, and where they deserve to be. Read the opinions - you are the minority.
Posted by: hope
Location: near by
on Jan 28, 2009 at 06:01 PM
Take a look at how many people have died since this from undertreatment or no treatment at all. chronic pain is a disease just like any other and needs to be treated as fits. And how can you hold them responceable for those who shoose to lie about their condition to get the meds.Also a doc. cant baby sit and hand out meds to all or any patients. Its the patients responceablity to take them as written.Those who abused the clinic leaves those who really need the help left to die,bed ridden,leading to other health issues,stroke,heart attack and so on. I set those of you who dont understand chronic pain need to educate yourself.So for those who lost a loved one,but the question is, IS IT REALLY THE DOC'S FAULT....NO nd who is respronceable for those we lost and are losing that cant find care ?????? hope , hope that the world changes and lets doc;s due their job.
Posted by: Anonymous
Location: Topeka
on Jan 28, 2009 at 11:55 AM
Mominks, you don't know what you're talking about. Need in terms of pain treatment relates to the amount of medication needed to achieve pain relief, while mitigating the side effects of said medication. Some people are willing to destroy their kidney's over time so long as they're able to get enough relief to get out of bed in the morning. In medical treatment it's give and take. It sounds like you've just been listening to the government's spew instead of actually thinking for yourself. Regarding developments in the government's case: If you have a theory that doesn't match experiments and observation, it doesn't matter how much you like that theory. It's wrong. The government has been trying to force reality to match it's theories. They've been wrong all along and that's just starting to come out in the news.
Posted by: mominks
Location: butler county
on Jan 28, 2009 at 11:43 AM
Cliff, I hope you never experience chronic pain. Oxy is available by prescription only for a reason. A physician has the training to determine when a patient is ready to be weaned to a step down alternative. For some people there IS no correction, it just takes time to learn to deal with pain without being addicted. If someone commits suicide by overtaking an OTC med, that is a choice. A competent doctor should KNOW when his patient is abusing a prescription. The Schneider's just didn't care, and THAT is why they should never be allowed to practice medicine again.
Posted by: cliff
Location: wichita
on Jan 28, 2009 at 10:53 AM
mominks, I dont like the whole system of "pain management" insurance companies will pay for pain management but will not pay to fix the problems of chronic pain. pain meds is what people came to their clinic for. how they took their meds should be their own responsibility. if they want to commit suicide, who can stop them? the people who died were not forced to take pills by the clinic. they came there for them.
Posted by: mominks
Location: butler county
on Jan 27, 2009 at 06:34 PM
Cliff - if you have followed this story from day one, you would know that what the Schneider's did was a "quick fix" to people who had chronic pain issues. Instead of helping them as caring physicians to deal with their pain and develop a pain management routine, they simply prescribed drugs such as Oxy Contin, MUCH more than what their patients needed - in order to keep them coming back for more. People who are in chronic pain will do ANYthing to relieve their pain, that is why a doctor's prescription is required to obtain such drugs. I had surgery several years ago, and thank god that my doctor had an action plan to wean me gradually from pain meds, rather than just keep prescribing them for years so that I became addicted. The Schneider's are drug pushers. They wrote scrips for pain meds in order to keep these poor people coming back. They deserve to be in prison.
Posted by: Anonymous
Location: Topeka
on Jan 27, 2009 at 06:27 PM
Dismissing 55 deaths should give the public insight into the government's weak case. Treadway screwed up and is scrambling to regain footing. Trouble is, there is none. Anything she does at this point is to save face. Patients have a responsibility to use the meds prescribed to them as instructed. I don't want my doctor monitoring me every time I take my meds. Talk to previous patients of Doctor Schneider, most will tell you that he was the best doctor they've ever had (pain management and family practice patients alike). He caught conditions that other doctors and specialists missed and saved the lives of many, including myself. Criminal drug dealing doctors do not fire patients from pain management, they do not care for their patients well being as passionately and they sure don't refer out to tens of local specialists. He took the medicaid chronic pain patients that no one else in the area would or will touch. That's something to be praised for. Free the Schneiders!
Posted by: cliff
Location: wichita
on Jan 27, 2009 at 01:38 PM
I have enough pills at home to kill me, but I know not to take them that way. 59 murders? only if they forced the pills down their victims throats. more likely either the "victims" were confused or suicidal.
Posted by: Anonymous
on Jan 27, 2009 at 01:34 PM
Dr. Schneider and his wife have been pushing Oxy Contin to the public since it hit the market. They were perscribing my brothers, and many of their friends 280 count of 80 mg. Oxys every two weeks. We lost about 12 people in less than 6 months. My brothers were not addicts until the Schneiders started "caring for them". I am sick of people feeling pity for the Schnieders. They had no pity, and have no remorse for the patients they caused to die with their drug pushing! I agree, the DIShonorable judge, Belot needs to recuse himself from the case. Obviously, he wouldn't have the same reaction, nor would anyone else agree with him, had they seen the death that we saw in that short time of six months, because of them pushing Oxys. While I'm at it, Oxy need to be taken off the market along with Roxinol, and Morophine, and Phentonal. (Sp?)Those meds are to assist with death, not heal anything, and they serve their purpose very well.
Posted by: Mimi
Location: Wichita
on Jan 27, 2009 at 11:43 AM
I commented on the other story associated with this one (Prosecutors to appeal Schneider ruling:Could delay trial) and am going to comment again. The trial SHOULD include ALL 59 deaths! You can't take just 4 and forget about the other 55!! I FULLY agree with Elizabeth - Belot needs to recuse himself and let another HONORABLE judge take the case and MAKE SURE these two QUACKS are charged with ALL 59 deaths!!!! Let's not forget about the other 55 lives that were lost. I'd like to see 59 life sentences handed down - to BOTH of them.
Posted by: skeptic
Location: Wichita
on Jan 27, 2009 at 09:43 AM
How is it possible these people are actually responsible for 59 overdose deaths? If 59 died, how many survived? If that many people were keeling over because of this pharmacy SURELY there would have been a reputation and investigation a little earlier. 59!? They couldn't get away with that many assisted SUICIDES, let alone accidental deaths. Really? Now before you all go nuts on me, understand I'm not defending the defendant. I'm just calling B.S. on the prosecution. Sounds like the honorable Judge Belot is doing the same...
Posted by: Elizabeth
Location: Wichita
on Jan 27, 2009 at 09:31 AM
The "Honorable" Monti Belot needs to recuse himself from this case. His attitude is p***poor for a federal judge. I really hope that the Schnieders go down for what they have done. Both of them give health care providers a bad name!
Posted by: mominks
Location: butler county
on Jan 27, 2009 at 04:29 AM
I just hope the prosecutors pick the right 4 victims to present in court. PLEASE put these drug pushers in jail for a long, long time. They are a disgrace to the medical profession. |
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And I was not speaking to you anon.
Once again, Tami you are accusing anyone that does not share your views of needing psychiatric help. I don't post "gibberish" as you say. I was a trusting patient and employee of Dr S's and I was also personally threatened by Linda, so I would say I do know what I am talking about. This will be my last post, as I am too busy to argue with some idiot from ND who is brain-washed by PRN.
To Anon, yet you cannot refute anything I say, interesting. You post nothing but conjecture and gibberish, I post statistics and facts that I can back up. I would suggest psychiatric care if you truly live in fear of an unconvicted woman on an ankle monitor. Simply ridicules. When Mimi posted her death wish for me, I did not see any opposition from you. Are you afraid to disagree with Mimi now too for fear of your life? When you break down what you say, it's just silly.
Tami 3:43 pm.-Happy now? I used my name. Barbara are you on the same drug cocktail they have been giving their patients? Because Dr. Schneider will never practice medicine in that state of Kansas again or anywhere else for that matter. They might as well turn that building into a Taco Bell because they will never practice out of their again. They are going to get exactly what they have coming to them. I alread know the truth. Can you not read? I have already gone through this with a family member. I am done with you and your bs. Come back after the trial when they sentence them to prison where they belong and we'll talk then.
To me, Tami has no idea what she is talking about! I think she must be on major drugs! She thinks just because alot of us that have the same opinions and experiences that we are the same person and in another post even said that we may have multiple personality disorder. I think she needs to take a good look in the mirror! I don't think she read about the recording they have of Linda threatening Tanya Treadway (district atty) and she hasn't pulled up the public records that shows Linda has Bi-Polar disorder which shows she is a major threat to anyone who does not share her views. She just likes to preach for PRN and she likes to make sure she has the last word!
Really VERY SIMPLE 'me', I responded to anon Feb 13 8:15 pm, about why you asked such a ridicules question of Anon when you yourself remain anonymous. Before this posts, count them, 7- posts - back. In all your glory, Posted by: me Location: wichita on Feb 11, 2009 at 09:25 PM "Anonymous at 7:53 If you are such an expert on pain why do you hide who you are? Why don't you just come out and tell everyone who you really are." Simple enough now for you? I thought you and Fay already KNEW FOR A FACT,I was the Tami from that forum you keep publizing.
~ME~..Who is to say I am not working for another Dr..you don't know me to judge me..I gave no ones names to who I was even talking about..you and Anonymous just jumped right on out there and assumed I was talking about yall...why so defensive are yall guilty?? The comment I made to you was to correct you on how many times you can get a script and the amount...anywaysI have no idea what you are preferring to on the PRN thing...but what ever...I made my statements from the facts...if you can't handle the truth well that is your problem...I saw everyday to what was going on in the clinic with the patients..you didnt so you are going by hear say...I will forever defend Dr Schneider he did nothing wrong...So if you want to rant on and that makes you feel better go for it...but I know the truth and when it is all done and over with you will to...
Tami-what in the hell are you talking about now? Do you even keep track of what story you are posting too? Hell, do we even know if Tami is YOUR real name??
I was quoting 'me' for asking Anon, seemed rather silly to me as she remains nameless too. As for your post,oh brother! You people are becoming more and more ridicules, feeling desperate like the prosecution?
Tami, Most of us are not disclosing our names because Linda Schneider threatened to harm the prosecuting district attorney and now that's she's out she will harm anyone that is not on her side. She already has prior convictions and she is a threat to local victims.
I am a chronic pain patient who is now being managed by a caring competent Dr--- epidurals worked for only a short while, pt only made things worse, and i was confined pretty much to my bed ---no housework, only eating what was fast and easy, BARELY managing the laundry--- strong opiates are what gave me my life back--- if dr.s live in fear of governmental RUIN, what makes you think in your smug little cocoon when YOU need the meds they will be available to you? Acute pain is vastly different from chronic pain, and each person reacts differently to medication due to individual metabolism and chemical makeup--- i would think people would actually WANT to learn something about chronic pain, but it's clear all that exists is a lynch mob mentality---shame on you!! i'll be waiting patiently for the trial, and hope the judge will be able to parse the desperate DA's hyperbole from the true facts of the case...
me posted,"Anonymous at 7:53 If you are such an expert on pain why do you hide who you are? Why don't you just come out and tell everyone who you really are? Once again you guys spout all this crap about the physiology of pain." Have you disclosed your name me, perhaps I missed that post. And to the last question about the physiology of pain, that was painful to read, I swear people. You really don't see the significance? Why would it possibly matter what state a person is from? You do know the DEA is arresting pain treating docs by the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds in this nation? The odds that there could be so many very educated doctors guilty of the SAME charges, 'pill mills, trafficking, murder, fraud,'has got to be astronomical. Anon, if I misread your post, I apologise.
Quoting myself, 'People when properly (aggressively) treated at the ONSET can heal and no longer require the life giving, life sustaining medications.' Most, not all patients when they FINALLY reach a pain management doctor are in critical shape because the disease has been left to ravage body and soul. Because their pain or injury was not previously (INITIALLY) and properly (aggressively) treated. Sounds like your family member Me, was one of the lucky ones when she found Dr. Schneider, and her body with the proper meds was able to heal. Wish all could be so fortunate. To Anon, your point was? To anon, please don't pray for me.
Anonymous at 7:53 If you are such an expert on pain why do you hide who you are? Why don't you just come out and tell everyone who you really are? Let me guess, you are with PRN too and not even from Kansas. Once again you guys spout all this crap about the physiology of pain. WTF?? I know that my mother-in-law is no longer in pain after getting away from this idiot. Maybe he took care of her pain but if that was the case why did he continue to give her all of the meds? When she was strung out on painkillers and xanax she wasn't going to know if she was in pain or not. She is away from this fool and with a new Dr. No longer in pain and no longer on medication.
Me posted, "You did answer the question of why now that she is off of all of the meds that Schnieder had her on she is pain free. I believe it was the part where you said "People when properly (aggressivly) treated......". One more time,do you know anything about the physiology of pain? Thanks for making my point.