Machinists Blast Hawker Beechcraft For False Claims
Machinists Blast Hawker Beechcraft For False Claims Save Email Print
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IAM leadership today countered false numbers posted on the Hawker Beechcraft negotiations website. The company website touted “well over 1,000 hourly employees are now working on our production lines and the numbers are growing every day.”

“This is absolutely why we’re on strike,” said Union spokesman Bob Wood. “Company negotiators, led by lead company negotiator Dan Dymarkowski, lied repeatedly to union negotiators at the table, and they are now lying to the public.”

“It’s nowhere near one thousand workers,” said Wood. “We have enough friends on the inside to know they are not building new aircraft, just pushing things around.”

“Our strike is strong, and it’s clear that HBC Management is in a panic mode, and resorting to false claims,” said Wood.

The Local has a blog, www.beechworkersblog.blogspot.com, and the website for Local Lodge 733 in Wichita, www.ll733iam.com, and Local Lodge 2328 in Salina is www.ll2328.org.

The International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, AFL-CIO, CLC, is one of the nation's largest trade unions, representing more than 720,000 active and retired members. For additional information about the IAM, visit their website at www.goiam.org, or District Lodge 70 at www.d70iam.org.
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Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 28, 2008 at 08:43 AM
Right on workingawayatHBC! Yea how is it working for you strikers to see your union uppers driving new harleys and new cars?? Gee this strike didnt hurt them much did it! and the takeaways???? OK TELL ME THIS, WHEN MY INSURANCE WENT FROM 45 to 145 WHY DID THE UNION SAY....SURE VOTE YES! ???? that is when the take away happened and that was under Raytheon. The union just has you guys do its dirty work and most of you didnt know until about 2 weeks in what you were striking for!
Posted by: WorkingawayatHBC on Aug 27, 2008 at 07:37 PM
You were gonna get almost a dollar with the first contract genius.Why are there still brainless idiots at the gates when I go to work (like a man should) if the fearless union leaders say to accept the new contract then let the real HBC employees get to work.You know the union dues are going up to 80 bucks a month why dont you guys strike against the union because you're 90 cents is dwindling fast LOL LOL
Posted by: getaclue Location: Wichita on Aug 27, 2008 at 10:46 AM
I am sorry but come Tuesday I will enjoy my almost dollar an hour raise.I will enjoy not having to work 7 days straight if I don't want. Pension went up which in the long run will benefit us all.Yes it was worth it because in contracts to come they will know that we will strike if we have too. That is why we have suffered takeaways little by little because we just accepted contracts and did not stand up for ourselves.It was well worth it and you know it.....
Posted by: how on Aug 26, 2008 at 09:50 AM
how is the new one better??? what we save a couple dollars on insurance and then add a few to the pension. Oh and the work week. WOOPEE! geez the first one wasnt bad and this one wasnt worth the month fight and the lose in wages for those people, not to mention the drop in Wichitas economy! But we showed them, whoo hoo, we showed them we can stay out a month and save like 10 bucks!! well worth it boys! LORDY!
Posted by: companymanager Location: Wichita on Aug 25, 2008 at 02:21 PM
There was no bonus offered, I don't know why people make up these things.Lets just be happy that there is a contract they can vote on and accept so my crew can get in here and build planes.Stop making things up and get over it, the contract they did not accept was not that great and that is a fact....This new one is better.
Posted by: whatever on Aug 25, 2008 at 01:04 PM
Read man, the company OFFERED TO PUT IT IN, THE UNION SAID NO! of course they dont want anyone to know that!!!! Yea and when they took away 3 yrs ago is when the union should have come out of hiding!!! The union seriously just wanted to flex some muscle for the new company and they did and now they have their little tiny changes that don't make up being off work that long! So was it a win. I think not!! Imagine if we would have had a strike and were united back 3 yrs ago!! would have been a lot better! Besides, its a 3 yr contract, sh** will change in 3 yrs anyway!
Posted by: getaclue Location: Wichita on Aug 25, 2008 at 11:21 AM
see there we got a better one emagine that......no takeaways see it wasn't about the money it was about the pension, eto and insurance....For twenty years the company has done nothing but takeaway from the workers little by little.You say your husband was willing to strike last time yeah right, that does not change the fact that he didn't this time. Everyone keeps saying we should have voted to strike last time, so you think the company would have given us a better contract this time the best one in twenty years of course not they thought we would accept another bad contract with more takeaways than last time.But don't strike this time yeah that makes a lot of sense, let the company keep taking away little by little. Well they didn't win this one the workers did......UNION PROUD
Posted by: To Scabalicious on Aug 25, 2008 at 09:33 AM
LMAO!! I love it! This just made my day! Thanks for the post!!
Posted by: getaclue Location: Wichita on Aug 25, 2008 at 09:02 AM
to whatever- I have a copy of the contract in my hand right now and there is not a single thing in here about a bonus so your sources are wrong....Not a word about a bonus has been said for three weeks but now that the company knows we are serious all the sudden rumors of a bonus are circulating????Watch the news because the takeaways will be gone in the new contract that we will be voting on this week......
Posted by: Scabalicious Location: wichita on Aug 23, 2008 at 08:30 PM
S.C.A.B definition is Skilled Craftsmen At Beechcraft I am a SCAB and proud of it.
Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 22, 2008 at 04:08 PM
no one will ever make the strikers happy, plain and simple. They are an angry mob of people fighting for an unknown cause and will never be happy with the company brings back. And even if they get the same contract as before, just worded differently they will call this "all worth it" when in actuality, it was never worth it from the get go!
Posted by: whatever on Aug 22, 2008 at 01:22 PM
Your right my husband didnt fight this fight, because HE believes that there was nothing to battle!! He would have gladly been out there last contract when it was way worse then this one! He would be making the same money he is now because if there wasn't a union at Hawker/Beech/Raytheon at the time he finished school, he wouldnt have choosen that company!!!!!!!! The contract was fair, and not to mention that I have heard from 2 different sources that there was a bonus offered by the company but the union said no, because they knew if that was in there the vote would have been yes and then they wouldnt be able to FLEX THEIR MUSCLE for the new company and strike! They knew it was a good contract they just figured since we hadn't had a strike in over 20 years this was a good time to do it. Its only hearsay, but still, makes one wonder about the union!!!
Posted by: getaclue Location: wichita on Aug 22, 2008 at 10:56 AM
Well you enjoy the new contract we get, just remember your husband did not fight for it one bit.............I am getting paid I have a job to support my family thank you . Without a union your husband would not be making the money he is right now so If I were you I would respect what the union represents, which is a fair contract for employees. UNION PROUD
Posted by: Whatever on Aug 21, 2008 at 03:13 PM
That is wonderful that you stand up for what you believe in but you don't have to be a jerk about it. Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! And there wasn't any dirty work to be done!! My husband didn't ask the union to do his dirty work, HE VOTED YES!!! That is why he crossed. SO you go ahead and stand up for whatever it is you are striking over (most don't know) and let us handle the OT and the orders, K! I especially like the interview on Kake of the young new worker that had not a clue what she was striking for and all she could say was "go union, yeahh", way to represent! LMAO! Enjoy your unpaid vacation on strike!
Posted by: getaclue Location: wichita on Aug 21, 2008 at 01:15 PM
Just so you know I have gone out and got a job that will feed my family while this strike is on..Emagine that I can stand up for what I believe in and strike also....By the way the planes that have rolled out are ones that were 90% done already so nice try.....Also I am the one that the boss brings hot orders to in my area because he knows that they will get done. I am not the one who crossed the line to draw a paycheck and let my fellow union members do the dirty work for me....I not only do a good job at hbc but I also stand for something I believe in.Um what do you do? oh thats right let the union members do your dirty work....sad sad..Who is crying now..
Posted by: WorkingawayatHBC Location: square mile on Aug 20, 2008 at 07:50 PM
Hey getaclue Im pretty sure the three workers that crossed the line in your area are worth more than 150 a week the wages you get paid to insult people as they go to work to put food on their families plates.Maybe they arent quite the skilled mechanic you think you are but they ARE feeding their families and thats more than you're doing right now.Some people are painting but ALOT more people including myself are going about like business as usual (except the whiney union folks are outside of the building crying instead of inside)
Posted by: () on Aug 20, 2008 at 02:11 PM
I have been around aircraft workers all my life and I have to say that it doesn't look or sound easy at all!! There's alot of people on here saying that they are just abunch of overpaid underachievers. Well, that's just not true. These people are put through a pretty extensive training process and then it takes a long time to perfect their craft. I have a family member who was not college educated and worked their self all the way from assembly line to the FAA. So get a clue people and don't judge things you know nothing about. These people are hard workers.
Posted by: whatever on Aug 20, 2008 at 12:00 PM
Dear GETACLUE...I think you are the one that needs to get a clue. First of all, I don't care which side you are on, you don't need to attack your fellow co workers and I do hope you are the first one to attack someone when they are all back and get walked off the plant becuase the company will not tolerate it! 2nd...they are getting work done..not as much as normal..DUH. However, if you have been in front of plant 4 you know they have rolled planes out! And I am glad that my husband doesn't have to work with someone as rude and narrow minded as you! BTW, my husband is busting his butt and its not sweeping! Go ahead and stay out and listen to the union BS, we are loving the OT! Thanks STRIKERS!
Posted by: getaclue Location: Wichita on Aug 20, 2008 at 09:15 AM
I know they are not getting anything done in that plant, you can say the are all you want but they are not.....Well they are cleaning and painting so when we come back it will be ready for the real workers..And I know for a fact my area is shut down because about three people have crossed in my area and they are worthless anyway.Sweep the floors real good because I bet they have you doing it three or four times a day...HAHA.
Posted by: WorkingawayatHBC Location: HBC plt 2 on Aug 19, 2008 at 11:38 PM
Im an hourly worker at hbc that just had to cross the line.Im not in the union and never will be now that I see how the union geniuses act.They rush in front of my car as I try to pull in and then they yell at me not to hit them.I do believe in standing up for our rights but it seemed the union had they're minds made up BEFORE they even saw the contract that they were gonna strike.People were blowing whistles and walking in line around the plant before the contract was out,I think they knew they were weak so they had to do something drastic (or stupid) like turn a good contract down and strike just to prove to people that they will strike.Unlike contracts in the past that they should have turned down but didnt.So press on SCABS ONE DAY LONGER till PAYDAY HA HA HA
Posted by: To union proud on Aug 19, 2008 at 03:06 PM
I agree, if HBC workers do not like things, they need to go to Cessna or other plants for that matter. However, I disagree with the 'hamburger flippers' comment, of which I am sure you figured someone would. Your comment wanted attention and it got it. My husband has been with HBC for 13 yrs. He is no more a hamburger flipper than I am fry girl, as my degree shows me everytime I look at it on the wall. I think that union or non union are mostly all hardworking individuals and are far from flippers! My husband is skilled at what he does on aircraft and I am proud of him. He has crossed, he is a "scab" but that doesn't make him any less able to handle his job. The contract wasnt bad and he voted yes!! So for now he will take the OT, we would like to take a winter vacation!! Thanks strikers!!
Posted by: Union Proud on Aug 17, 2008 at 10:07 AM
Cessnajobs.com, just begging for experienced workers. Let the hambuger flippers work for HBC. They could build a McPremier or a McHorizon and put them in a Happy Meal.
Posted by: Leonard Location: Wichita on Aug 16, 2008 at 07:49 PM
I work at Spirit what use to be Boeing i want to say to you strikers i am proud of you it takes guts to stand up for the future.But it take nothing to complain like those who are not striking.Who after it is all over with will benefit from your effort . Those who are not union members should have to negotiate their own contract . Then we would see just how much you cowards would complain then.you scabs are just like those that cross the line at Boeing You want someting for nothing.Again I say I am proud of you Hawkers.Dont listen to those negtive comments you will prevail.
Posted by: to well... on Aug 15, 2008 at 06:01 PM
I agree we should have gone out in 2005 and we should have gone out in 2001 and we should have gone out in 1996, those contracts blew. I for one voted to reject those and voted to strike on those also. My kids were thinking about trying to get on at HBC but I couldn't possibly think of letting them do that with all the take aways from the people who haven't even applied yet or started working there yet.
Posted by: well... on Aug 15, 2008 at 02:40 PM
well its week 2 and nothing that i have seen on the news regarding the company on a contract, so how long are strikers gonna stay out? They brought in 150 contractors to my husbands department. The big OT is available too! So how many will finally cross on monday, I am guessing a lot. You guys didnt think it would last this long did you!? It wasnt a bad contract and if you belly ache about the insurance, then you should have pulled a strike last contract, everyone seems to forget about that one or they do not comment on it. Am I surprised, not really! My husband would have gladly stayed out for that one, but no the Union suggested to vote yes last time. So I don't want to hear about the insurance, the Union should have stopped the bad insurance with high rates then, its a little late now!
Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 15, 2008 at 02:19 PM
Wake up people the Union nor the Company care about any of you and you are without pay and insurance right now and for what? to bad you don't really stand up for your children and go to work, nothing hard about aircraft, and most of you are blessed to make the money you do and have the benefits you do. nothing going on here but MOB mentality and selfishness. You are just like the company that you are talking about. and you will never make up the loss in pay and insurance. stupid move to listen to the union and most of you do not know what you are out there for.
Posted by: Striker Location: Rose Hill on Aug 14, 2008 at 03:02 PM
Anonymous: Yes individuals can be replaced, but you can't replace an entire work force. It's not like we are a bunch of dock workers. It would take years to find enough qualified workers to replace us. There is a lot more to building an aircraft than bucking rivets,and it better be done correctly. Several HBC employees are leaving for Cessna. I guess this contract was the last straw.
Posted by: To Cliff on Aug 14, 2008 at 10:30 AM
Yes that did happen to some on the picket line, however I would like to recall the 3 gentleman that were arrested on the picket line for being drunk at 8Am and hitting peoples cars with their signs. The door swings both ways huh!
Posted by: RealWorker on Aug 13, 2008 at 08:12 PM
Union stewards are the LAZIEST of all LOL! Is that how your chosen?I hope the contract is the same just so you will shut the #$%^ up!Please quit we really don't want you back because all the real workers are back!
Posted by: Editor Location: KAKE on Aug 13, 2008 at 06:30 PM
z-thanks for your comments. kake.com is glad to provide the forum to discuss the issues and voice your opinions. One point--if you use profanity in your post, chances are it won't make it here. Thanks
Posted by: Anonymous Location: Kansas on Aug 13, 2008 at 06:22 PM
We are losing 2 valuable employees to Englewood Colorado they start to work Aug 27th they couldn't walk across the picket line but they found something better in Colorado. I wish them luck and all the others that are seriously looking for work elsewhere. I think HBC and the union will be hurt by the loss of good employees and dedicated union workers.
Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 13, 2008 at 06:07 PM
Union Sewart: The Company can't fire employees but the Company can REPLACE any striking employees at their will. That includes your job.
Posted by: z on Aug 13, 2008 at 05:39 PM
This is for KAKE. I think you guys have done a great job providing coverage on the strike. Although I believe some of it is a lot of hype, not on your part, but on the parties (HBC and Union both)involved. Anyway, we do appreciate your hard work and dedication to keeping us informed of the details as they are available. And how great that you provide this forum for comments!!! I can see that alot of people are putting it to use. It's a great way for people to express themselves. Thank you again and keep up the great work.
Posted by: BBoy Location: Wichita on Aug 13, 2008 at 04:08 PM
Union Steward: You are scary! You can try to intimidate crossers all you want, but I would rather stand next to a scab than a bully any day. You only survive out here because of the union, you couldn't handle working for a company and having a good work ethic, attitude. Remember, you get more flies with honey than you do vinegar. I HEART SCABS!
Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 13, 2008 at 03:23 PM
If HBC were to vanish, then people would have a GOOD REASON to get a new job. Since they have a good job right now, that has medical benefits and pays the bills, there is NOT a good reason to find a new job. Plus, if HBC were to vanish, other companies would be very likely to hire them, especially the ones who stood up to the bullies, and worked through the strike. As it stands now, however, no one that pays anywhere close to the same as what they are currently making is going to hire anybody from HBC. When the strike is over and you end up with the very same contract that you snubbed (or worse), all the strikers are going to look very foolish. Even worse, everyone will know your true colors, and how badly you treated the people you used to call friends over a contract that is better than the last several have been. Everyone is replaceable. There will be a learning curve, but it won't take HBC as long to make up for their financial losses from this strike as it will all of you!
Posted by: CROSS Location: Wichita on Aug 13, 2008 at 01:32 PM
Yeah that's it, line-crossers.. do it, just do it. The company really could care less about YOU, but you NEED the company, you can't SURVIVE without the company - You can't LIVE without that dark towering slab of barren concrete and runway that lays on E Central -as it RULES your life. Why someone on here said they would die in a week from no medication if they didn't cross the line. How on earth did they get themselves to that position? What would you do if HBC vanished off the face of the earth? It's perplexing to think one would end up cold, limp and lifeless on the floor if they strayed away from their drug dependencies that only big-daddy-HBC can make possible. That is no way to live; Go ahead.. cross. Those on the outside, however, know they NEED us more than they we need them. If they continue to be stubborn, we'll find jobs elsewhere and watch their empire crumble. The car dealers can then extend their crusades on the other side of Kellogg.
Posted by: cliff Location: wichita on Aug 13, 2008 at 01:26 PM
so the union creates a hostile work environmnent? so far scabs have ran into and injured 2 picketers, one in wichita nad one in salina. real good reason to run someone over, getting yelled at?
Posted by: Union Steward Location: Wichita on Aug 13, 2008 at 01:18 PM
To Bboy: I happen to enjoy my job at HBC alot. That's why I have been there 20 plus years and don't plan on leaving. As far as a "hostile work environment" if you can't take the facts go somewhere else, that is IF you work for HBC. It's people like you that I have to represent as a steward on a daily basis that don't deserve it!! You know the TYPE!! If you don't stand for something you will get nothing. One more thing, the people that work beside me are all STANDING STRONG. I will fight for your rights, will you stand with me? Probably not!!!!!
Posted by: Ed Location: Bel Aire on Aug 13, 2008 at 01:13 PM
I am a retired Raython Beecrafer of over 30 years I have been through both strikes this company had and in both cases we gained nothing. If your union had looked at the 84 strike that lasted a whole 13 days they might have noted that we had to end it because to many people were crossing the line. My wife is crossing and I take and pick her up each day and your union leadership is lying, the parking lots have more cars in them each day and the people insid will tell you that more people cross each day. This was not a bad contract not as good as we would like but not near as bad as some we have bought in the past
Posted by: Bboy Location: Wichita on Aug 13, 2008 at 01:04 PM
To Union Steward: You create a hostile work environment, so you better stay striking forever. With attitudes like yours, no wonder people were miserable working next to you. Power to the people who crossed the line to work.
Posted by: Truth be known Location: ICT on Aug 13, 2008 at 12:57 PM
Thank you, This is Crazy. People need to read BOTH the Contract and the Summary of the contract that goes with it.
Posted by: HowSweet Location: Wichita on Aug 13, 2008 at 12:54 PM
"One lady had a big smile on her face when she said she loves her work right now, and that everyone inside is getting along better, managers are treating them great, and a lot of work is getting done. I'm so glad it's so nice and rosy in there; not that it's the end of the quarter or anything. Do you think that it will be all flowers and beads when crunch time comes up? They'll be cracking the whip on you like dogs in the dirt - and there will be no provisions that will allow you to see your family for just a little bit. Enjoy it while you can.
Posted by: UNION Steward Location: Wichita on Aug 13, 2008 at 12:31 PM
To all of the new hires that have become scabs. The National Labor Relations Act protects you as employees PERIOD. The company cannot fire you!! Here is a paragraph from the NLRB act... 3) The term "employee" shall include any employee, and shall not be limited to the employees of a particular employer, unless the Act [this subchapter] explicitly states otherwise, and shall include any individual whose work has ceased as a consequence of, or in connection with, any current labor dispute or because of any unfair labor practice, and who has not obtained any other regular and substantially equivalent employment, but shall not include any individual employed as an agricultural laborer, or in the domestic service of any family or person at his home, or any individual employed by his parent or spouse, or any individual having the status of an independent contractor, or any individual employed as a supervisor, or any individual employed by an employer subject to the Railway Labor Act [45 U.S.
Posted by: Red on Aug 13, 2008 at 11:34 AM
I am contemplating returning to work. My son said that family comes first. This contract is not as bad as others I have heard about, so why not? This is a better alternative than not working at all.
Posted by: New Hire Location: Wichita on Aug 13, 2008 at 10:48 AM
You say you are doing this for the future and for time taken away from new hires. Then why are you blasting us for crossing the line? We were told by HBC if we didn't show up we'd lose our jobs. The union said we wouldn't be fired, but I asked for documentation of that and no one could provide it. Many of those around me that have crossed are 'new-hires'. And now you call us 'scabs' and someone even threatened to 'thump' us on the 'melon'?
Posted by: Happy to Work Location: Wichita on Aug 13, 2008 at 10:16 AM
From the inside I can tell you that all areas of plant 3 look to be functioning well. Some departments have 50% of their hourly employees. Of course we only have enough people to work one shift, but work is getting done. Also, the workers that are here are happier. They say that those that are working are the real workers and the trouble makers are outside the fence. One lady had a big smile on her face when she said she loves her work right now, and that everyone inside is getting along better, managers are treating them great, and a lot of work is getting done.
Posted by: ohhhhh on Aug 13, 2008 at 08:36 AM
So sorry, the medical will go up 9 dollars, not 3!! MY BAD!! So where were you hard core union people 3 yrs ago when insurance changed from PPK with very little out of pocked for 45 a month for a family to BCBS for 142 a month for a family with less coverage and more out of pocket expense??? I went to the dr for a knee injury and had to pay for my OWN xrays. My son sliced his head open and we went to immediate care (not ER) and we had to pay for over half of the bill!!! But where were you guys when that was going on. Seems to me 100 dollars more a month would have made more sense to fight over then 9 bucks!! But no, the union banned together and said it was a good contract. Well the 4% raise Hawker is offering will finally cover my expense for medical since it went up 3 YEARS AGO!!!!!!!
Posted by: j on Aug 13, 2008 at 08:26 AM
To hbc UNION WORKER. I am glad that you commented! Your words are kind and I feel you are really doing your part in something you believe in!! You are not being rude or disrespectful at all. I am the wife of a crosser. He does respect the union and what you guys are doing but he crossed for our family reasons. Thank you for your comments!
Posted by: abunch on Aug 13, 2008 at 12:34 AM
AAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I had to let that out! KAKE 10 and all media Please stop all coverage on the strike! We only want to have LIVE Coverage when the new contract is signed!! Until then there are better things to report. How about the beautiful cool down in the weather lately??? :)
Posted by: Union Steward Location: Wichita on Aug 13, 2008 at 12:17 AM
We will win this strike and get a better contract!!! I just want all of the hourly line crossing scabs to remember one thing, you will all get what we have fought for!!!! That is what p!@#$'s me off the most. But this is America after all and I will get over it, but you can bet your a!@ that I will forever show no respect for a SCAB. To all the union members/scabs that have crossed, remember this also, we were all informed on how to save for a strike, and the amount of money that you P!@# away at eating out or the vending machines at work would have got you thru this strike. WE WILL WIN!!! 1 DAY LOMGER!!!!
Posted by: Oldphart on Aug 12, 2008 at 10:36 PM
To "This is crazy": I would have voted FOR the contract with some simple language in it. A health care package that was set, not with hidden exlusions we find out about later. Contrary to previous statemtents about reading the contract, we found out about these exclusions long AFTER the contract. And a 4% raise was generous. However the cost of insurance is not only higher, but is open ended that last year. The union offered the same coverage for 11 million less, but the company declined. Why? HBC furnishes their own insurance and BC/BS only manages it for them. There is too much money to be made covering their own insurance package this way. At the bargaining table, Dan could have offered simple improvements to attendance policy, forced overtime, and an honest insurance policy and won my vote. And those of many others. I now suspect that the company wanted this strike, knowing they could tout "Best contract in years" in public. It ain't Beech no more.
Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 12, 2008 at 09:35 PM
A vacation is not what my husband took. He has been working trying to pull in money to help take care of things around the house. However what he can find is not cutting it. We also need our health insurance for reasons that are nobodys business but ours. We counted on the union to press the issues and they have done nothing. With out this job my health could take a turn for the worse and I could die and that is not cool. So you should know what you are talking about before you get mad. This has been no vacation. I have not been to the doctor in two weeks and I supposed to go every week. So much for the union and there dues. My husband has done what he can and now he has to do the hardest part and cross those lines and go back to work. All I can do is be ther for him and support him and know he is doing it for his family.
Posted by: This is crazy on Aug 12, 2008 at 09:14 PM
I can't do this anymore. I have tried to keep up with the news about this strike. All I keep reading is union and non-union people blustering on and on. I have seen both sides completely off whack! Read the contract yourself. Read the whole thing and not just the page or two highlight that the company passed around! Make up your own mind. Some of the things I keep reading: The 4% raise is going to cover the cost of the $3 increase premium. WHAT? Its going up higher than that PLUS NO ONE knows what the premium is even going to be in 2010-11. And I'm with you, I_Agree. I BEG you people to READ the contract! And if none of this effects you, then please stop posting. Your "opinions" are clouding the issues. (Copy and paste that. READ IT!) http://www.hawkerbeechcraft.com/2008_negotiations/files/2008_proposed_settlement_agreement_all_articles.pdf
Posted by: hbc UNION WORKER Location: andover on Aug 12, 2008 at 08:35 PM
Not every single one of us that is striking is trash-talking and vandalizing like it seems to be portrayed. Just as well some people that cross the picket line understand and possibly sympathisize with what we are doing. We ALL have to do what we feel is right in a given situation. And maybe someone else doesn't agree with it, but that's the way it goes sometimes. We are allowed to picket under a given set of guidleines and as long as we are doing that then I see we are only doing what is allowed to us. And if someone is vandalizing cars or whatever else that may be illegal then they should be dealt with accordingly, but that goes for both sides of the fence. You wouldn't run over someone in a cross walk, so why do it to someone on the picket line? We are limited on what we can do on how long we can hold people up and the police are making sure of that. Treat me with respect and I will do the same for you. It's the Golden Rule people, plain and simple. At least for me it is.
Posted by: Rally Location: Wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 07:23 PM
UnionWife: Do you have any friends? With that mouth of yours, I doubt you have many. People work hard, don't chastise others who make a choice to go to work. I know there are union people who are getting offers for "SALARIED" positions. Your husband's so-called brothers/sisters are going to be scabs when they cross to accept a job that is offering them a chance to improve their quality of life. Maybe you are just an over medicated house wife who ran out of your medicine because you do not have health insurance.
Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 12, 2008 at 07:07 PM
"unionwife" sounds like completely brainwashed union trash
Posted by: I_Agree Location: wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 06:56 PM
"Since when is it the right of others to judge the personal circumstances of others as to whether a person is in a position to strike or not???? That is really unfair!!!! We don't know what others are going through healthwise or whatever. None of us are in the position to judge anyone. Striker or Non Striker!!! I feel that both sides can be respected without resorting to insulting them. Why not focus attention on doing what it takes to get it over with?? You're on here talking about CEO's and management and the union leadership as well. Why not focus on bugging them to get their butts back to the table????" AMEN!! All the mind games, the scare tactics, the teeth gnashing are getting both sides nowhere. We have Group A getting no money and Group B getting no planes out.. and group C the rest of Wichita not benefiting from a stimulated economy. This is hurting everyone! Finger pointing just makes people even more p##@ed off.
Posted by: Alex Location: Wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 06:39 PM
"Salary is for management" is a naive statement. There are plenty salaried employees out there who are not management. The MAJORITY of salaried employees are not management. But, you are right about one thing. Salaried employees get paid whether they're there or not... That also means NO OVERTIME for salaried employees. You'd be hard pressed to find a salaried employee who doesn't work well over 40 hours a week. The only difference is, we don't get paid for the overtime. You do.
Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 12, 2008 at 06:08 PM
The union does not know what is going on the production lines. Things are getting done and planes are going out.
Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 12, 2008 at 05:32 PM
To Sad: Don't worry about people not respecting your husband for crossing. I think the majority of Americans understand the need for a consistent paycheck. It takes time to find a new job, and often there is a waiting period for health insurance. There are relatively few union companies anymore, and the concept of a strike would seem silly to most non-union workers. The exception, it seems, is here in Wichita. Or maybe just in aircraft?
Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 12, 2008 at 05:24 PM
"Salary is for management" ??? Our receptionist is salary... Our lab techs are salary.... Our engineers are salary... Those are not "management" positions. And my company does respect me as a worker and provide me with benefits - THAT I EARN. Too bad we're not hiring. We could get a bunch of mouthy union supporters in here - they could organize a union drive and ruin the lives of everybody here, too. Oh, and drive the company into the ground while they're at it!
Posted by: m on Aug 12, 2008 at 05:16 PM
The true cost of this strike may never be known. The bitter, hateful people that are preventing honest, hardworking people from getting to work will someday return to their jobs. Then, they will harass, bully and torment the hard working people that chose to continue working for whatever reason. Those good people will eventually get fed up and quit. All that HBC will have left will be the people that so obviously HATE the company and the managers that they work for. Very few places are going to hire a striker at anywhere CLOSE to the kind of money they made at HBC. If you felt that the contract was good, and voted YES, then it is not worth losing your home, health and credit history to be rude to people you used to call friends. The stikers are accusing HBC of creating a hostile work environment. WHAT DO YOU CALL WHAT THEY ARE DOING? Bullying is wrong, no matter what age you are. Respectable, rational, mature adults would not behave this way. It's pathetic!
Posted by: unionwife Location: wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 05:15 PM
You are right I don't know you..But if 89% voted to strike that should tell you something it wasn't 51% or 60% it was 89% So with that said it is not a lost cause and I think it is sad that you would think that way...Don't personally attack me because I believe in my husband and respect what he is fighting for.In the end when we get a better contract then you will see that it is not a lost cause.......My husband is not rude to people crossing I know some people are but he isn't.I just hope in the end we have better health care for our kids.And a better contract......
Posted by: z on Aug 12, 2008 at 04:48 PM
Since when is it the right of others to judge the personal circumstances of others as to whether a person is in a position to strike or not???? That is really unfair!!!! We don't know what others are going through healthwise or whatever. None of us are in the position to judge anyone. Striker or Non Striker!!! I feel that both sides can be respected without resorting to insulting them. Why not focus attention on doing what it takes to get it over with?? You're on here talking about CEO's and management and the union leadership as well. Why not focus on bugging them to get their butts back to the table???? They are the ones who will end this. Threats and insults will get us no where. If we're against corporate america then let's go after corporate america, not after your fellow workers, union or non union.
Posted by: Sad on Aug 12, 2008 at 04:40 PM
And the union hasnt called everyone because I know some that are on the line still waiting for help! And YES he HAD to cross. We liked the contract, we also like our HOME and our FOOD and our VEHICLES. SO YES HE HAD TO CROSS!!! No job in Wichita is going to pay enough to pay my bills, unless its another aircraft company! Yep and they are MY bills. NOPE I didnt save my life away to walk a picket line for a lost cause in my eyes, but that is good that you are able to support your decisions, and I truly hope it works out for you. If you feel the way you do and are in the position to walk, then do it! But not everyone agrees, keep that in mind. Walk in others shoes sometime, its an eye opening experience when done right! :)
Posted by: sad on Aug 12, 2008 at 04:35 PM
Union wife, it is sad that people like you think and act the way you do. You do not know my situation, as I do not know yours. Don't personally attack me or any other people who need to cross, unless you want to do it to my face. And the SCAB BS, is just that BS! People cross for the own reasons and as I said, I respect what the union is doing, that doesn't mean I have to support it. And my husband also vote YES to a good contract. So do us a favor and be a little bit more curtious to others situation. No need to name call, no need to tell me how to live my life, I don't do it to you! So go ahead and do what you need to do for your family, but don't sit there and be like that to people on here. That is what everyone has been talking about, the hardcore Union members yelling, being rude, not to mention be arrested for hitting cars with signs. That is just disrespectful. You can picket for you cause but you do not have to do and say things like that on the line or on this forum!
Posted by: Previous Post Location: Wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 04:27 PM
I submitted this for comment, but for some reason they did not post it. On a different thread someone commented that those crossing the line are new hires. He/she said that new hires were basically threatened with his/her job. Is this true? If so, I don't blame them for crossing......
Posted by: Is this true? Location: Wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 04:14 PM
Someone posted this on a previous thread, is it true? If so, I don't blame them for crossing: Many of those crossing the line are new-hires. They were told by the company if they didn't show up they'd be fired. The union told them that HBC couldn't do that. Neither side could provide it in writing. So, what were they supposed to do? Risk losing the job they just started? And now you call them 'scabs' and basically say you are going to run them out when the strike is over. What would you have done in their shoes? You knew you'd have a job afte the strike, would you have risked it otherwise?
Posted by: unionwife Location: wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 04:04 PM
You say your husband is getting ready to go back to work......So basically he just wanted a week vacation????????That is crazy get a job somewhere else until the strike is over, don't just take a week off and cross, that is the worst kind of SCAB...........Family does come first that is the point of this strike.
Posted by: unionwife Location: wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 03:57 PM
Her husband will not only lose friends over crossing,people will not respect him and he will be known as a scab for the rest of his time at hbc.............You say oh my husband had to cross, we have three little children and my husband has gone out and got a job to make extra money while he is on strike.....We have made changes in our spending and lifstyle which everyone should do...So don't say oh he had to cross because he didn't.The union has called to see if we need anything from diapers to formula for our kids they are willing to help people on strike.....There are jobs your husband could get in the mean time plus the 150 for striking........Sounds like he wanted to go about it the easy way and cross,when my husband stands for what he believes in and will work even harder to fight for what he deserves...
Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 12, 2008 at 03:24 PM
Sad: If your husband loses "friends" over the strike, then they weren't his truly his friends to start with. A true friend would respect his decision to support his family. Hang in there.
Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 12, 2008 at 03:24 PM
Thank you sad. As my husband gets ready to go back to work becasue he does not believe what the union is doing Iam glad to see there are others out there in the same boat Iam in. He voted for the contract. This is the best we have seen in a long time and it is time to get over it. People will be mad at what I have to say. But I also know that I have a serious health condition that needs to be taken care of and we have young children. So why people say stand up for the company my husband will be standing up for his family. So leave these people alone that don't have a choice and the rest of you do what you need to do. Life goes on and we will all get through this one day at a time. It does not make anybody better then the next it just means you are taking care of things the way YOU need to take car of them.
Posted by: cliff Location: wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 03:01 PM
Alex, thats the problem, find a company that will respect you as a worker and provide you with benifits. by the way, the workers on strike get hourly wages not salaries like you. salary is for management. paid if you are there or not, not by the hour.
Posted by: Alex Location: Wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 01:17 PM
The union is the Heart of America?! Someone please pick me up off the floor...I can't stop laughing! Kansas is a right to work state. If you don't agree with the salaries and beneifts that you KNOWINGLY SIGNED UP FOR when you took employment at RAC/HBC, then I suppose it's your right to strike. It is NOT your right to physically block others from entering and performing their jobs. That's the main issue I have with strikers. You expect everyone to respect your right to strike, yet you don't provide the same respect for those who choose to work. And, if things are so terrible at HBC, then why sit around waiting for things to get worse so you can make your $150/week? Why not look for other permanent employment at a company that you believe will respect you as a worker and provide you with the salaries and benefits you are entitled to?
Posted by: sad on Aug 12, 2008 at 01:02 PM
I feel for the woman with the husband on the picket line. It is a catch 22! I understand where you are coming from, I am that wife too! My husband crossed, he had to. We were in no position to lose the medical or the money. We respect the Union, they are doing what they feel is necessary, however what it boils down to is number 1!! Family!! Your kids need meds, school things, a roof over their head. And to me, at what cost do you trade your well being and your families well being in? Over some ETO? If anyone read the medical plan it wasnt much different then what we currently have. SO is this all worth it? My husband crossed and had to deal with the yelling and possibly losing friends but I am proud of him for taking care of his family. And no matter what happens now or in the future, he will continue to provide for this family and if he ever feels mistreated by Hawker, he will move on, but until then we will enjoy what has been given to us and enjoy our life!
Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 12, 2008 at 12:55 PM
Believe it or not - there are people living in this area that do not support unions, don't work at Taco Bell, and are not being paid by HBC! Wow! Some of us have great jobs, too - and with no lying unions. HBC is NOT in business to make airplanes. HBC is in business to make MONEY. Just like every other capitalist venture. The strikers have made their own decisions, and some will most likely lose everything. (Here's a thought... maybe they can borrow money from the union leadership, since they don't have to survive on $150/ week???) Unfortunately, this strike DOES affect all of us, since it impacts the local economy. The really disturbing part to me, however, is the fact that everyone involved seems to have reverted to 8 year old behavior. Oh, and there's that whole freedom of speech thing. See, we're all allowed to have our own opinions, and can disagree with others, even post comments online. I'm glad my company is union free, so I don't have to deal with the hostility of a strike!
Posted by: MIS TREATED BEECHCRAFTER Location: WICHITA on Aug 12, 2008 at 12:22 PM
In my oppinion the majority of the people who rail against the strike are mangement personel who have been asifned this task by the SLT! They fel that if they think the public is against us that we wil cave to their crappy contract offer. The company refuses to bargain so they are the biggest instgators of this strike. which is what they planned all along. they are trying to break us! I would be willing to bet the other Aircraft Companies are backing them with financial support. Cessna, Bo,bardier, Spirit, Boeing I bet you are the next targets. They all want to go non-nuion. Remember what happened to the Coleman employees, they have been screwed over for years!
Posted by: cliff Location: wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 12:09 PM
when the iam struck boing, I was here, in a small union not on strike, couldnt strike, no strike clause in contract. it was real funny listening to the news saying how boeing was still building planes in wichita and going around here watching secretaries trying to lube machines, and watch supervisors who had never done anything on the line trying to drive rivits. but the news always reported it was buisness as usual here amoungst the empty parking lots.
Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 12, 2008 at 11:29 AM
This is only the start of things. It is not going to end anytime soon. as my husband sits on the picket lines I have to wonder what we are going to do. He does what he knows he needs to do as a Union member, as I sit and watch my meds run out, our savings accout run dry, my kids start school without the things they need and all for what? I wish somebody could tell me. Things were not that bad and to me they are now getting worse. People are getting hurt. Acting like jerks and not like people that are standing up for what they believe in. From what I have heard this is going to go on for a long time. There is not going to be two weeks this time so I hope everybody is ready to live off of $150 a week.
Posted by: unionwife Location: wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 11:24 AM
The people posting negative things about the union are just mad because taco bell has no union.......How do people think things went years and years ago, not by crossing the picket line people stood up for themselves.Hawker is really hurting themselves they are not getting airplanes out right now. The tools for Mexico are not being built so they can build an entire aircraft in Mexico.But you people will say this strike is stupid come on our jobs are being shipped to foreign soil, the company could care less about the employees bringing in billions of dollars. My husband has been at Hawker for ten years and each contract they take things away little by little. That is why he voted to strike.. It is just like you taco bell employees going to your manager and asking for a raise because you work the drive thru..........
Posted by: cliff Location: wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 11:16 AM
how much is hbc paying writers? wthe ones that make up these cute antiunion sayings? or is that a management position?
Posted by: PROUD STRIKER Location: Greenwich RD Wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 10:55 AM
I can tell that alot of the comments are most likely left by CONTRACTORS..(the dumb comments with a few words..) HBC will be getting it's REAL workers back with their ability to hold to something they believe in even if it is not easy. They will be tossing you fly by night, no roots contractors right back to the temp service. Enjoy the extra breaks and ice cream and lunch. What they really think of you is that you come in like a vulture to peck at what is left by others. I can tell who is a contractor before I even look at the out of state car tag. I have known some contractors and know that they get a good amount of their power tools from the companies they work for. George Nguyen, I hope you are making sure to practice tool control. We want to have power tools when we come back to work. Stand strong STRIKERS!!!!
Posted by: Shecky Location: Kansas on Aug 12, 2008 at 10:39 AM
Get back to work, you lazy whiners.
Posted by: Happy Location: Kansas on Aug 12, 2008 at 10:01 AM
Hawker Rocks!! Keep 'em rolling!!
Posted by: BLOOD AND SWEAT Location: on the line on Aug 12, 2008 at 09:36 AM
We have friends on the inside that happen to be saliory workers and have no choice but to be thier. They are not scabs. And they also know if we can make it better for us then it will make it better for them. They dont have a voice to speek out and are glad we can and most support us. Oh bye the way all of you who are talking against the union, and say you work thier, I have noticed the times on the post. MMM does the bosses know your wasting company time?
Posted by: Tina Location: plant 4 on Aug 12, 2008 at 09:34 AM
To: "yeah, right whatever". I can't believe you have such a boring life that you have to mingle in our "union life" and put us down. What's it to you IF our dues go up? You obviously have no backbone and don't realize that the union is the HEART OF AMERICA and we will fight to the end. If you haven't noticed America is falling on her face because no one stands up for anything. We lost our Ten Commandments, prayer and so many more priveledges. Thank God we have the UNION and can fight for rights. I guess you'd rather sit back and watch us become a communist country where we are slaves and have no rights to anything. If you aren't apart of our business and have nothing but negativity to say about us why don't you comment on a political sight or something and leave the few people in the world that will FIGHT....ALONE. ....SOLIDARITY!!
Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 12, 2008 at 09:24 AM
Feel lucky your husband has a job, Hawker Wife. I am one too, I am a Hawker daughter, a Hawker daughter in law, a Hawker grand daughter, and a Hawker sister in law. ANd I am proud of my family and I am glad that our family had a job while I was growing up. Ma Beech put food the table when I was little, then Raytheon put food on the table when I had a family. And although I don't always agree with Raytheon/Hawker all the time, the bottom line, if we didn't like how we were treated, my husband would be looking for other work. Your premiums that you speak of, when did those go up? Have you read the contract. Our premiums jumped huge last contract!! This contract, they are not going up much at all. The raise your husband will get, will cover the 3 dollar increase, unlike last contract when it didn't. But the union doesn't talk much about that mistake do they!
Posted by: Union Member Location: In the Sky on Aug 12, 2008 at 08:52 AM
I hate to say this, but there is a policy at HBC on harrassment and more. I'm a Union member and I look back and see how everyone is treating each. People getting hit buy cars, people getting tickets from the police, and who knows what else will arise. What blows my mind is the Union is backing the name calling and harrassment of non-union employees who are REQUIRED to work or they lose there job. Non-union members are as much as fault as we are egging things on. I agree with everyone on the reason why we strike, but come on doing the other stuff? You should be able to go out and stand up for whats right. BUT THE QUESTION IS THE WAY WE UNION MEMBERS AND NON UNION MEMBERS TREAT EACH OTHER DURING STRIKE RIGHT? LETS STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT IN A PEACEFULL WAY BEFORE SOMEONE GETS HURT WORST THAN THEY DID. WE DO THAT MAYBE NON-UNION EMPLOYEES WILL WAKE UP TO.
Posted by: Crosser on Aug 12, 2008 at 08:51 AM
Well, I am sure the union is completely honest aren't they!? They haven't said one false claim at all, huh? whatever, I am on the inside and people are crossing everyday. I have to park further and further down in the parking lot. This stirke was ridiculous! The ETO that you are crying about...any person that has tried for years to get on at Hawker would not give one rats behind that they don't get as much ETO!! The health care, talk to a Cessna employee, I did. And the company offered a decent offer on the health care. You wanted options, you got options, you wanted the cost to not go up, you got it, oh I am sorry it went up like 2 or 3 dollars. You wanted better wages, you got better wages. They even tried to meet in the middle on pension. So how is it that the union suggested last contract to accept it, when that is when the insurance went sky high and the wages did not increase. But this contract, which is better wages and not a big increase in health care, was turned down
Posted by: a HBC Manager on Aug 12, 2008 at 07:30 AM
Things aren'nt good here. When the salaried people work the line, then no one is doing thier job, plus they complain about getting dirty and the long hours. Some are ready to walk out and work elsewhere. Hang in there strikers, we need you. The company can't go on much longer like this.
Posted by: d on Aug 12, 2008 at 05:46 AM
You guys are just mad because HBC doesn't really need you to get the job done.
Posted by: News to you Location: ict on Aug 12, 2008 at 12:39 AM
Hawker Wife-At least my education level is that in which I can tell you and your Union equals BS. You do know that the UAW members at Chevy agreed to concessions (oh my, how dare they!) so that Chevy could try and stay afloat. They may not like it, but they understood what was needed in this time of economical hardships. You and your band of brothers can panhandle the BS somewhere else.
Posted by: bob Location: Wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 12:31 AM
My husband is not only walking the picket line each week, he has also gone out and found a job to support not only himself but also our three sons, until this strike is over. He went into this contract with an open mind, when he read what the company offered he said some of the things were ok. But the takeaways in eto and insurance were something he could not accept not only for himself but for the new people as well. For those of you who have an opinion about this strike, it really has nothing to do with pay, but it has everything to do with the fact that the company needs to take care of the people like my husband who are building the very aircraft that bring in billions of dollars to the company. I believe my husband and all of the other people who are also on strike are doing the right thing......If you have not read the contract and don't know a thing about how the aircraft company is treating their workers then I think you should keep your mouth shut.............
Posted by: Proud HB worker on Aug 11, 2008 at 11:34 PM
Proud Hawker employee. To each their own when it comes to opinions on the strike. Just don't bash others for SPEAKING theirs. I have my own reasons for working for Hawker and it is NO ONES business as to why I choose to do so. Some people are behaving very child like. In the end everyone is going to end up working together again so let's behave like adults.
Posted by: HBC STRIKER Location: Wichita on Aug 11, 2008 at 11:30 PM
Stand strong even though it is not the EASIEST path to take... Crawling across the picket line is the EASY way... and for RIGHT!!... the friends on the inside are SALARY.. not SCABS.. Scabs are NOBODY'S friends anymore....
Posted by: Brian Location: HBC Plant 3 on Aug 11, 2008 at 10:38 PM
I wouldn't believe anything that management has to say, because, I have seen them look the other way on defective parts that should not be installed on the planes. Just so they can get them out the door. I wish people on the outside could see how things really work on the inside. If Onex/Goldmansachs could only see how things were really ran, they would comprehend why this strike happened. It is not a matter of money or benefits as much as it is respect of the employees.
Posted by: Gonzo Location: Third rock from the sun on Aug 11, 2008 at 10:22 PM
Man free speech is a great thing.
Posted by: Hawker Wife Location: Kansas on Aug 11, 2008 at 10:06 PM
Why is it you people cannot grasp the fact that this strike is NOT about the money!!!! It is about the work schedules, insurance and the take aways in ETO time! Maybe before posting your narrow minded comments on here you should read and understand the contract that was offered. But understanding it is probably above your education level considering the childish posts that keep getting put on here. I do not wish for my husband to have to work everyday for the next three years straight or for his check to get eaten up by undisclosed premiums. So this is to inform you that what they are striking for IS about taking care of their families!!! If you are not directly affected by this strike then why does it bother you one way or another? I fully support my husband and all of the union members that are willing to do whatever it takes to get a fair contract. So stand TALL and PROUD UNION MEMBERS--We are behind you!!!!!
Posted by: B Location: Wichita on Aug 11, 2008 at 09:32 PM
I hope beechcraft just waits you out and who cares how many are working those that are obviously care about their families, those that are on strike obviously don't, hope they have enough money in savings to take care of their families for awhile, and if they have that much in savings, then obviously just greedy for more. You should be glad you've got a job and stop wanting more, some people would love to have what you've got, be glad you're alive and live with what you've got instead of the things you think you have to have.
Posted by: boc Location: picket line on Aug 11, 2008 at 09:32 PM
typical RAC / HBC negotiations it's never about us it's always about public image. Lies or no lies i'm out here til it's over. good job union stay strong.
Posted by: BBOys Location: wichita on Aug 11, 2008 at 09:29 PM
You gotta fight for your right to partaaaaaaaaaay!
Posted by: Right! Location: ICT on Aug 11, 2008 at 09:19 PM
Wait a second, 'friends on the inside'? Aren't those called SCABS!?!?! I thought scabs were bad? Talk about lies.
Posted by: yeah right whatever on Aug 11, 2008 at 09:16 PM
you union people are so full of crap.... why don't you leave your job and go somewhere else? we are so tired of you polluting our lives. But could you please clarify about you union dues going from $45 a month to $90 a month in november you people are like leading sheep to slaughter when your done having your sheep forclosed on and leave them with nothing what are you going to say for your precious union who was the last guy who did this? you know the Waco Tx guy
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