Hawker Beechcraft Strike: Day Five

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Reporter: Chris Frank
Email Address: chris.frank@kake.com

141 comments

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Friday marked the final payday for Hawker Beechcraft striking machinists until after the strike is over.

Those who anticipated the strike, saved up to help them endure a potentially long work stoppage.

"I tell my people that it's a good thing to keep money saved up in case
something happens," said striking machinist Armando Ibarra.

Armando Ibarra is one of those looking for a part-time job. During a strike, the union helps them find temporary jobs.

On the third week, picketers will start getting $150 per week in strike pay.

The reality is, the longer the strike lasts, the less those striking will be spending, which could be a huge impact on the local economy.

"It hurts everybody. We don't stop at Q.T. as much. We don't go to the
movies as much and we won't be shopping at Wal-Mart as much," said striking machinist Angelo Martinez.

The WSU Center for Economic Development and Business Research said that a month-long strike could mean as much as $12-13 million less in local wages.

How much of an impact this will make on the local economy depends on how long the strike lasts.

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Comments are posted from viewers like you and do not always reflect the views of this station.

Posted by: Kathy Location: ICT on Aug 19, 2008 at 05:46 PM
go STRIKERS!!!!

Posted by: eastsider on Aug 16, 2008 at 05:45 PM
True Colors -- You're right. You'd think that Rooney and the rest of them would give up their paycheck, in the spirit of solidarity! That way, they'd be able to feel their brothers and sisters' pain. Wouldn't want to hang from a rope while I waited for THAT to happen!

Posted by: True Colors Location: ICT on Aug 16, 2008 at 03:52 PM
Well if Rooney's getting 105K a year... Why won't he go without like his little helpers convinced the Union members to? Because he's just as bad as a fat cat politician.

Posted by: Bummer Dude on Aug 15, 2008 at 07:32 PM
I hope, for everyone's sake, that it doesn't last that much longer. And I hope that people will care for the safety of others as well as their own. I mean, MAN, how many more people will be run down or whatever before it stops??? It's getting dangerous for all involved!!!! Becareful out there everybody!!!! Peace Be With You!!!

Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 15, 2008 at 12:56 PM
They will not be talking anytime soon. The company is sittinf firm at this point. I have talked to people inside and not hourly people the "big people" and they say this could go on for weeks. September or October. So wow was this really worth it. Our homes, cars, health. I don't think so. We let the union put on much trash in our heads before we could think for ourselves and now we are all sitting in a big fat hole. Medications are running out house payments are due food needs to be put on the table and what the union is putting out is a far cry from help. We should be pushing our union to be pushing Hawker. We need our jobs and respect and right now we have neither and the only ones fighting for us is is. This does not hurt the union they are getting paid they have foood and insurance. Maybe we should replace them next. No paychcek this week that hurt. Whats next no house?

Posted by: aircraft worker Location: wichita on Aug 15, 2008 at 08:31 AM
Some severance is better than none. If you get laid off it will be because of work slow down and will be by senority as it should be or outsourcing in which case you get severance and is very likely. You cannot ask for more than that. Troubled worker, you say you don't mind overtime then you say you don't want to work it. Like i said that is part of aircraft work. It does not last forever, it usually runs in cycles. Love it or leave it. I have 20 years because I worked the overtime when needed, I got more training and transfered to more secure jobs and have endured more strikes (stayed out for the whole time on both of them 49 and 69 days) and did whatever necessary to support the union and maintain my job with the company. nobody said it was going to be easy.

Posted by: any news? on Aug 15, 2008 at 08:24 AM
Has there been any talk of meeting at the table yet? $150 a week is not going to feed my family for very long....

Posted by: !!! Location: ict on Aug 14, 2008 at 04:47 PM
SEVERANCE??? hahahaha that's only if your job is gone directly do to outsourcing. that's in the companies words.

Posted by: toubled worker on Aug 14, 2008 at 04:35 PM
I dont mind over time matter of fact I am sort of new at this so it is the only way I can stay on top of bills,But I dont want to work 12 hr and 10 hr shifts for 19 days straight.Combine this with just 5 days eto for the rest of my career here looks like they want to go through people fast. I guess if I HAD 20 YEARS IN I wouldnt have to worry either. AIRCRAFT WORKER!!!

Posted by: aircraft worker Location: wichita on Aug 14, 2008 at 12:13 PM
I looked at the contract and it does not look bad. Overall it is pretty much inline with the other aircraft in Wichita. Somethings may be better than one aircraft company and worse than another. The wage is good, pension good,401k match (spirit hourly does not get that anymore),you still have severance pay (Spirit's is gone), the insurance cost is worse than some but not all. About the 19 days on overtime, if you are in aircraft you have to expect it, just like layoffs. I have been in aircraft for over 20 yrs. and that is just how it is. The company must have control of the workforce to meet schedules. Thats only 2 weekends in a row. Seriously if overtime is a problem for you than I would sugest getting out of aircraft, because when there is not any overtime it's usually layoff time.

Posted by: Another Striker Location: Wichita on Aug 14, 2008 at 09:06 AM
I don't intimidate or anything like that, but when it does come time to go back to work, that doesn't mean I have to help a scab. If they come to me for help, then they can go find someone else cause I won't help them.

Posted by: Hawker Beech worker on Aug 14, 2008 at 07:15 AM
Word is cessna is hiring dissatisfied workers from hawker beech. They have a huge backlog and lots of planes to build. If hawker beech ceo's don't change thier attitudes, I'm going to apply at cessna. Besides, you've told us that cessna pays better.

Posted by: Stubborn Location: ICT on Aug 13, 2008 at 06:15 PM
To Give Them a Break-You are a God-send!! Thank you for having the courage and ethics to point out intimidation and harassment by the strikers toward those going to their jobs at HBC.

Posted by: Give Them A Break on Aug 13, 2008 at 04:28 PM
My husband is walking the picket lines for a better life for our family, BUT, he has told me what is being said at the gates to the SCABs. Is it really necessary to wish harm, and even death, upon these people and their families that cross? We are human beings first and foremost. Treat each other as such. You never know, you may need a little compassion sometime in your life. Not everyone can strike. Everyone has their reasons, and this is a free country. Remember, what goes around, comes around! In the end, I hope and pray the Union will prevail, however, can't it be accomplished in a humane way?

Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 13, 2008 at 04:23 PM
This could have been the most profitable August ever for HBC. We have truly been blessed with the fairest August ever!!Too bad the company is not wanting to do the right thing, and just continues with the lies and manipulation!! Perhaps the company will eventually learn that we aren't just numbers. We are people with skills, and abilities just like them,......different skills, but needed skills!!

Posted by: Rally Location: Wichita on Aug 13, 2008 at 01:08 PM
Striker: it's ok .. Peace Out!

Posted by: ? Location: ? on Aug 13, 2008 at 11:54 AM
Why isnt anybody asking about the none appoved parts that HBC has been using !!! This seems sort of ONE SIDED. HBC sided that is

Posted by: Striker Location: Rose Hill on Aug 13, 2008 at 08:47 AM
Rally: Just a litle Humor to break the tension.Didn't mean to offend.:)

Posted by: Rally on Aug 12, 2008 at 06:40 PM
Well now that you have picked apart my comment, why don't you go check some of your union peep's posts and check their spelling. I just like group hugs.... you people need prozac, but wait! You don't have health insurance to pay for the Rx.

Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 12, 2008 at 03:31 PM
Ha Ha Ha you guys drive me nuts you all sit here and make fun of each other for spelling and things like that why don't you look at the big book. NOBODY is talking and won't be anytime soon. I hope you fools who voted NO have lots of money saved up so come September first when all of those big house payments are due you can pay them. Or when you get really sick and you have NO health insurance and you have to pay out of pocket you will look back at what the company was offering and think twice. Then we will see who looks like the _______?

Posted by: / on Aug 12, 2008 at 03:29 PM
So, now we're reduced to calling folks out on their spelling and grammatical errors. Wow, I guess the insults are getting old for everyone!!!!! Can't we all just get along? :-)

Posted by: Striker Location: Rose Hill on Aug 12, 2008 at 12:44 PM
Also "lets" should be a contraction. :)

Posted by: Reader Location: wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 11:50 AM
Sensitivity is spelled wrong RALLY.

Posted by: mom Location: wichita on Aug 12, 2008 at 10:57 AM
wake up, the union doesn't care about you . All they want is your dues to fund their political agenda with. GO back to work and suck it up. Be glad you have jobs. HBC is gonna leave town and all strikers had best wake up! Quit yer complaining!

Posted by: Rally Location: ICT on Aug 12, 2008 at 10:30 AM
HBC STRIKER: What is not spelled correctly?

Posted by: HBC STRIKER Location: Wichita on Aug 11, 2008 at 10:49 PM
Rally.. Learn to spell so you don't look so ignorant in the future. This is dealing with people's ability to provide for their families. Stand for something or you will fall for anything. ******Mr. George Nguyen and Mr. Jim Schuster, Can we get this settled fairly????

Posted by: Anonymous Location: ICT on Aug 11, 2008 at 10:30 PM
DEAR UNION: Do you really belive that you are going to tell HBC how the cow ate the cabbage when it comes to job outsourcing? Fat Chance!!! I'm thinking that what this strike is going to come down to is a true no-win situation! You talk about corporate greed and outsourcing! Well, you're really opening the door here - HBC shunts the work to Mexico (if you give them enough time) and you end with the shaft because your jobs are gone!!! If it goes on too long you won't have anything !!! Think about it.

Posted by: Rally Location: wichita on Aug 11, 2008 at 09:28 PM
lets all gather by the old oak tree for a group hug, and then sing "take this job and shove it" I mean hey! let's have fun. maybe the guys dancing on the picket lines could wear speedos and leg warmers (pretty chilly this week) and then attend some sensitivey training classes that close with a big group hug!!!

Posted by: Right on! Location: Ict on Aug 11, 2008 at 09:24 PM
Thank you, Wake up. I guess the union people can read a blue print but not the insurance packet that comes to them in the mail. When it comes to insurance, don't listen to anyone-read, read, read!

Posted by: Wake up on Aug 11, 2008 at 07:21 PM
You people need to consider why insurance rates go up each year. BCBS provides HBC with what is paid in premiums versus what is paid out in claims. If the amount of money paid out in claims is higher than what the company paid in premiums - duh! Your rates are going to go up. How can BCBS guarantee to anyone what the premium will be? Many don't use the insurance and are stuck with the increases because of those who use the ER for every sore throat or headache. I would love for my company to pay the portion of premium HBC pays. Try paying the $1046 for family on your own. Your portion is a deal!! It's always me, me, me...

Posted by: Pro America on Aug 11, 2008 at 06:41 PM
Do you Union haters really think that your jobs are safe? You need to take your heads out of the sand. Not only are aircraft jobs being sent to other countries, but all manufacturing jobs are being sent out. And lowering wages isn't the answer. It doesn't matter if your making $10 per hour to $20 per hour. Companies are sending our work to other countries exploiting thier workers $10 to $12 dollars per day! Now, who are the greedy ones? Big business. And this isn't only blue collar jobs being exported, but white collar as well. America isn't going to manufacture anything unless we unite and turn this trend around. Who says Unions aren't needed today? At HBC outsourcing was the first issue brought up by the Union to no avail. HBC has done a real good job making this appear to be over wages and benefits, turning everyones attention away from the issue of outsourcing. Our jobs going out of our country is the number one issue. Wages and benefits are on the bottom of the list.

Posted by: ? on Aug 11, 2008 at 05:36 PM
You union people will say anything!!!! Nobody's been fired!!!! It's all complete propaganda!!!! If people want to work, they have the right to do so without being harassed back off and leave them alone!!! Ya BIG BUNCH OF LIARS!!!!!!

Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 11, 2008 at 05:35 PM
$300 out of pocket is better than what you would have paid if you DIDN'T have the COVERAGE to being with. ER's are very costly and if you went to the wrong one, even more money.

Posted by: Single Mother Location: Wichita on Aug 11, 2008 at 05:26 PM
I think it is pretty sad when stitches and x-rays cost over $300 out-of-pocket for a 3 year old with a cut on his ear. I also got two infractions for leaving work two hours before the end of shift to take my son to get those stitches. So i guess the attendance policy and the insurance were just GREAT to begin with....

Posted by: Ha Ha on Aug 11, 2008 at 05:19 PM
You should not assume that everyone who comments regarding the strike, works at HBC. This is an open forum!!!! Get over yourselves!!!!! Everyone is welcome to say whatever they want!!!!

Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 11, 2008 at 05:16 PM
EXCLUSIONS ARE A GIVEN IN ANY INSURANCE PLAN. THIS INFORMATION IS INCLUDED IN THE PACKET YOU RECEIVED IN THE MAIL WHEN THE BC/BS PLAN WENT INTO EFFECT. IT'S YOUR FAULT YOU DIDN'T READ IT OR THE FINE PRINT.

Posted by: Rick Location: Memphis, TN on Aug 11, 2008 at 05:00 PM
Striking workers are, sadly, misled by union leaders. No one wins these things. I KNOW about unions. -A fired Air Traffic Controller.

Posted by: To the Moron on Aug 11, 2008 at 04:55 PM
I just want to know did you get your STICK BROKE TOO!!!! The police have been contacted numerous times down here for the Gangsters surrounding vehichles and verbal threats. Now they think they have squatters rights and tried to pitch a tent on company property. Our paper won't even cover the gangsters down here.

Posted by: Gangster with the broken wing!!!! on Aug 11, 2008 at 04:42 PM
How are you gonna hold your SIGN!!!!! By any chance did they sew your mouth shut too at the E.R.?????????????? Im sure the Union is Gonna Pay for your medical bills for jumping infront of a moving car...Cause your brothers and sisters stick together..... Dang I can not quit laughing about that... It's bad here in Salina.... We have picketers with MAD COW DISEASE!!!! PLUM CRAZY JUMPING IN FRONT OF MOVING VEHICLES.. Could we be so lucky that it was BRIN....... Never enough said about KARMA what goes around comes around!!! heeeeeeeeeeeee

Posted by: Anonymous Location: Kansas on Aug 11, 2008 at 04:25 PM
Not a vacation. I will not cross but am so ready to get back to work.

Posted by: Oldphart Location: Picket Line on Aug 11, 2008 at 04:17 PM
On or about July 27, I recieved three bills from Wesley Medical. The charges for a one night stay in CCU came to 16,500 dollars. My family and individual deductible were met earlier this year. Two bills for me totalled about 190 dollars. The third bill was for 3,800 dollars. A call to Wesley resulted only in requests for a post dated check, credit, or debit card to pay the bill. I called BC/BS and found that an MRI done on me while I was sedated was noted as an "Experimental Procedure" and was excluded by HBC for consideration. BC/BS has a list of exclusions for prescriptions, procedures, and tests that were added after the last contract was signed. I am not out on strike for money, holidays, or increased benefits. I am on strike because of the unethical ways the company dictates how BC/BS should manage the HawkerBeechcraft insurance. Key words here is BC/BS manages the HBC insurance. Now you know why the company did not take the Unions offer to save 11 million on insurance

Posted by: Striker Location: Wichita on Aug 11, 2008 at 04:15 PM
HA HA is probably one of those salary people that were allowed to KEEP internet access at HBC. Take it away from the hourly who had no time to be on it anyways... HA HA

Posted by: HBC STRIKER Location: Wichita on Aug 11, 2008 at 04:13 PM
Anonymous: When you hit a person standing in a gate with your car (SCATTER OR SPLATTER).. EXPECT to pay with YOUR car insurance. P.I.P. Who is being gangster- like, not us??? All we have done is be vocal, scabs are HITTING people with their cars. I have seen 2 people get hit and they were only standing there holding for the time they were allowed to hold by law. FYI, there is a strike going on, leave for work earlier.. DUH??:)

Posted by: Me Location: Wichita on Aug 11, 2008 at 04:04 PM
I like grapes!! They are good!

Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 11, 2008 at 03:41 PM
"Cliff" OT is paid for time worked, check the law. If you miss part of a regular day during the week you didn't WORK it. And yes the gangsters at the gate are interferring, harassing, intimidating, and damaging employees property. What about the scab picture board mentioned and the flyers saying you will hold coworkers in "contempt"? Why don't you look down on the message board from 8/10,8:56 PM. The comment mentioned fear at the gate in Salina because of the strikers actions. What did you expect? The union is building it's reputation everyday.

Posted by: boc Location: picket line on Aug 11, 2008 at 03:40 PM
to all the salaried people complaining out there about picking up the slack for the insurance....thanks...but if you are not satisfied with what you have there are plenty of job openings throughout the company within the barganing unit so when you get truely sick of paying your outrageous fees...come join us and become a member. we're fighting for you. and as for HA HA....shouldn't you be at work in order to c-c-collect your benifits not posting on the web at 10:15 in the morning...cause last i knew there was only one shift.

Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 11, 2008 at 03:32 PM
When you walk out in front of a moving car, expect to get hit. SCATTER or SPLATTER!

Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 11, 2008 at 03:29 PM
Actually Cliff, I have my own brain. It's flattering that you feel my writing is of professional quality, though. Unlike certain union members, I don't need anyone telling me what to think.

Posted by: striker Location: Rose Hill on Aug 11, 2008 at 03:21 PM
I agree. The company needs to return to the negotiating table or there won't be a company. Why should we accept $160 premiums for medical when the union has proposed a plan with level premiums of $75 for 3 yrs that will save HBC $11m over three yrs? Why shouldn't we demand the best retirement plan available if it will benefit both HBC and the workers? Are you aware that new hires receive no vacation and only 24 hrs of unpaid ETO in their first year? How many salaried employees work 19 days on and 2 days off for months at a time? How many salaried workers work in a shop that is often well over 100 degrees and doesn't cool off below 90 because of the crappy ventilation? (By the way,thank you for exhausting your office air conditioners into the shop). We build some of the best aircraft in the world and expect to be fairly compensated.

Posted by: Stephanie Location: Wichita on Aug 11, 2008 at 02:48 PM
Anon 11:42pm: We're striking because they can't tell us what the premiums are going to be for 2010-11. (e.i. Cessna was guaranteed $150 for the term of their contract) They said they'll tell us as far out as possible before the end of our shift when we'll have ot. BEFORE it was at least 24hrs notice. We're striking because some of us get 10 of ETO, but the new hires are only going to get 5 max. Never more than that. We're striking because of what Cliff (Wichita) said too. The company is creating a hostile work enviornment by making workers get paid differently and have their benefits different too in the same department. The company doesn't care about us workers. They didn't when it was Raytheon and they don't now its Onex. We want to be treated well. Hope that helps you understand better.

Posted by: cliff Location: wichita on Aug 11, 2008 at 02:15 PM
"anonomous" did you get your portion of the company position from the writers at lunch? the mandatory ot your refer to being well compensated for is still mandatory if you miss any part of a regular day, you would not be well compensated for. in other words under the new contract if you miss any time during the week, you dont get overtime pay even though ot is mandatory and cant be refused. thats whats in the contract turned down.

Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 11, 2008 at 01:16 PM
So what exactly is it that you want? I have heard a lot about respect and equality, mandatory OT (which you are well compensated for), higher insurance premiums (still lower than salary), bad things for the new hires (you know, they can turn the job down if they are not happy with the offer), and "our fair share" (which is WHAT, exactly). Could it be that even the strikers don't agree on what they want? Maybe they have a hard time expressing themselves without signs and yelling? Your right to picket ends when you interfere with MY right to go to earn a living.

Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 11, 2008 at 01:06 PM
While it is great that some of you were able to plan ahead and save enough to be prepared for a strike, not everyone has that luxury. Many people are just barely getting by, and with the increase in energy costs driving up the costs of everything else, there is often nothing left over at the end of the month. Honestly, how many people are going to find contract work? Non-union businesses won't hire you, and everyone else knows that you will be going back to aircraft as soon as things calm down. And how much will you actually be making? Probably not enough to even cover COBRA. The name calling is really attractive though - very mature. Wichita and the aircraft industry should be proud! Ask the Union negotiators who walked away from the table and refused to talk anymore.

Posted by: cliff Location: wichita on Aug 11, 2008 at 11:02 AM
for "my paycheck will be here friday again" was it you that hit the picketter with your car? the "gangsters at the gate" havnt hurt anyone, how about you?

Posted by: Anonymous Location: Wichita on Aug 11, 2008 at 10:25 AM
I know this may be shocking but I truly believe there is fault on both sides. You have a management group and ownership that truly does not have compassion for their workforce. They do not seem to focus on what is truly most important...Leading the workforce to truly build high quality, safe airplanes. You have a workforce that doen't seem to understand that their demands will lead to less employment in Wichita. In fact the workforce sounds a lot like what those fired up union employees in Detroit of a decade or two ago. I would hate to see Wichita turn into another "motor city" ghostown. Union and management should get this over with and get focused on doing what it takes to truly make this the competitive, proud company that it once was.

Posted by: ha ha on Aug 11, 2008 at 10:14 AM
S- STILL C- COLLECTING A- ALL B- BENEFITS

Posted by: Salary Worker Location: ICT on Aug 11, 2008 at 12:33 AM
How can you guys be complaining over ins costs? Do you not know that they are going up all over the U.S.A.? The reason you weren't given a number for 2010 and beyond is because the ins premiums are negotiated on a yearly bases and that figure is unknown. You will still pay a mere 15% while the rest of us salaried employees pick up the slack and pay 20%. Even at $200/month I consider our insurance cheaper than most companies in the city. My neighbor at cessna pays more than I do and my wife would be paying double for the same coverage. And yet you get to choose which hospital you go to and you are complaining about less than $11/month increase? Give me a break.

Posted by: Anonymous Location: ICT on Aug 10, 2008 at 11:59 PM
Oldphart: What are/were the exclusions that you refer to re: the medical w/BCBS? I am aware of the increases in premiums but guess that I have not been impacted by the exclusions - please explain? Thanks

Posted by: Oldphart on Aug 10, 2008 at 11:44 PM
Stephanie: ty for you support and kind words. The cost I was referring to are the refusals to pay by our insurance on blood pressure medicine, dr office blood test for a diabetic wife to check her sugar so they can adjust her meds, and HBC specifying (after treatment) nonpayment to the provider claiming "experimental procedures, improper codes" and other reasons. Those are costs passed on to me in the past three years that were covered when we first started this contract. And if those exclusions are not in writing at the beginning of the contract, what promise do we have they change now and will hold to their word? I would be happy to have the insurance they provided the first time. I was made unhappy when they started adding all the exclusions...always after the fact..leaving me holding the bill. Those are deceptive practices and I am sure Jim did not realize his company was doing this to their employees in the name of lean.

Posted by: Anonymous Location: kansas on Aug 10, 2008 at 11:42 PM
I read the contract all 64pages and I still don't see what we are striking for I am in the union and agreed to go with the majority and strike, but I feel that it is a good contract. Has anyone else read the full contract?

Posted by: striker Location: Rose Hill on Aug 10, 2008 at 10:11 PM
I find it funny that the company says it offered us an increase in vacation. They are very good at manipulating numbers. Under their contract we would receive 3 wks at 8 yrs instead of 10,and receive 4 wks at 18yrs instead of 20. Guess what? The majority of the employees slip between the cracks. New hires will have 7 yrs to wait for this increase. The people hired in the big hiring of 97,98 already get 3 wks and will have 7 yrs to wait for their increase.Most of the rest are over 20yrs and already receive 4 wks, so the "increase"is of little benefit to anyone.Pretty slick huh? They're probably thinking they'll be in Mexico by then.

Posted by: My paycheck will be here this Friday Again on Aug 10, 2008 at 08:56 PM
I have had many calls from co-workers that are striking here in salina... They want to come back to work and are afraid of the gangsters at the gate. Don't be scared we are the "good guys" that will not threaten you and will be glad to have you back.. Don't let idol threats make you loose your house, have your electricity shut off, or have to beg your creditors to have mercy on you because your on strike.. Your family is more important then a bunch of bullies.. Every one knows the contract was fair for the country being on the verdge of a depression. Some people should not cut of their nose to despite their face...

Posted by: anonymous Location: plant 4 on Aug 10, 2008 at 08:18 PM
Hey fellow union members! I hate reading all these blogs where people from the "outside" put us down. All I have to say is I'm so proud of LL733! We have stood strong and who cares what the other people think. We give our lives to this company and we deserve much more than we were offered! I heard today that HBC may be going back to the table Friday? Something about office personnel can't do hydraulics? Anyone else hear about going to the table? Until then, my skilled, hard working and dedicated family stay in UNITY!!!

Posted by: rich Location: spirit on Aug 10, 2008 at 07:22 PM
it is bad at spirit also. morale is bad and in a year and 10 months i hope we will be walking also. watch out for the hidden things in their wording. hang in there and show them you will stick together.

Posted by: Alan Location: Plt 4 on Aug 10, 2008 at 04:36 PM
Worth mentioning to all my union brothers and sisters. Go over to SPIRITS local and read what they are telling them now. Sounds the same...no wonder....only one common denominator.its ONEX LLC Driving the aviation industry and all their family's into the ground faster than a yard dart. As CEO..MR Jim??...if you knew we were all being mistreated.then why did you let it continue...Now consider his total statement...from a CEO????.........cause I could and really didn't care...be more the complete sentence. Give management some output quotas tied to money in their pockets........and this stuff will end up at flight with ALOT of the big pieces missing.This town is gonna be thinking aviation is a greed based business.....Boeing is gonna strike and so is Spirit. Talk about economic impact. They might want to thank ONEX for that one instead of the union. Soured the whole town in......3 years??.now that takes talent. Recon they even gave it some thought??...no

Posted by: Ex HBC Team Leader... left for a better life Location: I have been there on Aug 10, 2008 at 03:46 PM
I spent 6 years in plant 4 before I left, and see many faces on the picket line that are familiar. If you want a difficult job be a team leader, you get beat up from both union and the company. I see hard workers that worked their tails off to build a good aircraft who were not supported well and.... I see "workers" who were never at their job, visiting workers at other lines and taking long breaks... they also seem to be yelling just as loud as their counterparts on the video clips. It is the latter workers that the union spent most of their time defending to keep their jobs (union and non-union). Phrases from union plant chairs such as did you tell them in person one more time that they were supposed to be working instead of wandering around? If not you need to hold their hand one more time. There are many other critical areas that should have not been defended either. Company and union write a contract that rewards and disciplines. Ins. and pay are just part of the problem.

Posted by: Oldphart is a hater Location: ICT on Aug 10, 2008 at 03:05 PM
FYI, We are foing to win this strike.. We are doing this for your children!

Posted by: Stephanie on Aug 10, 2008 at 02:00 PM
Oldphart (love your name BTW) I normally agree with everything you have said, but I did notice one little flaw, the company doesn't know what the premium is going to be after 2009. So for 2010 and 2011 they said we'll owe 15% of whatever the cost. I encourage EVERYONE to check the facts for themselves! http://www.hawkerbeechcraft.com/2008_negotiations/files/2008_proposed_settlement_agreement_all_articles.pdf

Posted by: Oldphart on Aug 10, 2008 at 01:49 PM
Votecounter: The only fraud likely to be perpetrated would be by electronic means. All voting papers were carefully given to registered union members, marked by the individuals, put by those individuals in the boxes, and then counted multiple times by different volunteers. There were no hanging chads to contest. There are no electronic machines to be manipulated. Join the union, and next time you can witness this yourself, or even better, volunteer to help count. It is simple and leaves very little chance for what you suggest. And as far as Reps from both sides being present? Why SHOULD the company be there? They don't pay dues.

Posted by: martin riggs Location: salina on Aug 10, 2008 at 01:42 PM
I was on the front lines as you union members like to call it, and noticed the behavior by the strikers was comparible to the mutant family from the Hills Have eyes movie. I did'nt think grown peoples mentality could drop to that of cavemen, guess i was wrong. Striking so easy even a caveman can do it should be your motto instead of one day longer. What first grader thought that one day longer line up anyway? The paper here in town does'nt even print your sad story anymore. Maybe you guys can put a donations can out at the local kwik shop and see how many people do not give you anything for your cause.

Posted by: Oldphart on Aug 10, 2008 at 12:27 PM
FYI, since you dont understand, I will explain. Again. No insurance policy is worth what they say if the company dictates to BlueCross BlueShield what is no longer covered and what is rejected without reason. This is something that started about two years after the last contract was signed. Hidden costs were mounting because costs were eliminated in unannounced and unethical ways. What good would the new contract be with health care benefits not defined, particularly in the third year where no premium costs were noted. You assume that those running the financial side of the company would put ethics before profit. You know nothing about HBC. Nor do you know anything about the real reasons behind the company getting what they wanted.

Posted by: Wondering Location: ict on Aug 10, 2008 at 12:25 PM
Fly on the wall, I had heard this earlier in the week, but chalked it up to gossip. What proof do you have that Dan was fired. Why has it not been on the news?

Posted by: VoteCounter Location: Wichita on Aug 10, 2008 at 11:59 AM
Shouldn't there be reps from both sides(company & union) counting votes? Not just the union side? Seems to me that it raises the chance of fraud if just the union is there counting the votes.

Posted by: union worker Location: ict on Aug 10, 2008 at 11:43 AM
i would like ot see the ins policy that would have saved the company 11 mil....according to the union..why wasnt a company named ....and was this really a fact or a theory???

Posted by: Anonymous Location: ICT on Aug 10, 2008 at 11:40 AM
UNION WORKER: Thank You for the info on the total number of Union members who actually showed up to vote August 3rd. You're right that is still a very large number however you want to look at it. Thanks

Posted by: mb1970 Location: salina on Aug 10, 2008 at 11:32 AM
I am reading some of these comments on here and it looks like most of these people have not even read the contract or are just running their mouths to cause trouble. I am wondering if most of these negative comments are coming from people in management who have nothing else to do but spread propaganda. I voted to strike because the contract language was vague,its like the company just threw something out and said here take it.I hope the two sides can get back to working something out.This is not good for anyone,I just want to go back to work,but I cant just cross the line and let arrogant management win.Feeling caught in the middle and hope this is over soon.

Posted by: FYI Location: wichita on Aug 10, 2008 at 11:16 AM
Striker, just a little info....You had your choice of two providers-Blue Cross Blue Sheild and Wesley or Perferred Health Systems (PHS)and Via-Christi with the new contract that was rejected.

Posted by: hbc UNION WORKER Location: andover on Aug 10, 2008 at 10:51 AM
Yawn, The 4700 you referred to is total hourly workers in wichita, which of that is 74% union as of contract vote day. I worked that vote at the coliseum counting votes and it was right around 90% of them showed up to vote, and more than that showed up in Salina-close to 95% IIRC. So to answer your question-approximately 90% of 90% voted no on the offer which is just over 80%. Simple enough for you? That's still a very large number however you want to look at it.

Posted by: Oldphart on Aug 10, 2008 at 10:35 AM
Sassyantique, you hit the nail on the head. There are many here who have valid points, from both sides of the line. Bottom line, the SLT at HBC was never told how badly those sent to the negotiation table performed. Had there been communications to the top leadership at HBC about: 1. The abuse of the attendance policy. 2. The changes after the contract was signed that added so many exclusions to the insurance policy. 3. The countless times people were required to work overtime to repair errors that the root causes were never addressed. 4. The indiscriminate decisions made by shop supervisors that repeatedly impacted the immediate lives their workers in such a negative way, regardless of skill level, shift or job preference, and impact on production. 5. Dan D's refusal to even discuss topics such as these, when factors affecting morale were the biggest reasons for the strike vote. Managers at HBC don't keep their job at HBC when they bring news the boss does not want to hear.

Posted by: Just a thought Location: ict on Aug 10, 2008 at 09:47 AM
Nobody who does not want to cross the line but have families to support DO have other options. There is a thing called contract work. If you are that desperate, consider that. Don't cross the line.

Posted by: Striker Location: Rose Hill on Aug 10, 2008 at 08:47 AM
A major problem in these negotiations is a lack of communication."What we have here is failure to communicate". Failure of the Company to examine the medical and pension plans the Union proposed. Failure of the Union to give specific details of those plans to the membership. All I have heard about the medical plan is that it will save the company $11m dollars over three years and give us $75 level premiums for three years.I haven't even heard who the insurer would be. It kills me how the negotiations are never finished until the last day of the current contract.We are then given an incomplete copy of the proposed contract and told to make a decision.

Posted by: grandma on Aug 10, 2008 at 03:26 AM
Oldpnhart -- It's hard to listen to the union folks, because my BS detector keeps going off.

Posted by: fly on the wall Location: wichita on Aug 10, 2008 at 12:30 AM
The big bad wolf is gone. Bye bye Dan. Oh yea they fired him. Now Jimmy Boy needs to hire VP number 30 to take over HR. Thats why the news has not heard from HBC.Lets party now.

Posted by: sassyantique Location: wichita on Aug 9, 2008 at 11:30 PM
It appears to be very easy for people to hide behind their computers and make judgements about people and the decisions they make, when they do no know the facts . If you work at Hawker.. you know what happens inside and if you dont...you are speculateing about things that do not pertain to you and are none of your business. How many of you have asked any striker what is the important things that they feel are worth striking? Did it occur to any of you that something must be very wrong to have such an overwhelming amount of people to come to the same conclusion? Maybe it IS because we value our family and our health. Maybe..we want to do our job, do a good job, and go home to see our children and grandchildren grow into responsible adults who are not so easy to judge others unless they are walking in their shoes. Maybe you should let each person make their own decision. Because there are conquiences to evey action..good, bad, and ugly. You neednt speculate..

Posted by: Insider Location: Rose Hill on Aug 9, 2008 at 10:56 PM
Don't be fooled by people telling lies. The scabs working in plant 4 are only concentrating on the planes at the door. There is absolutely nothing going on anywhere else.

Posted by: Yawn Location: ICT on Aug 9, 2008 at 10:41 PM
Math must've not been your best subject, Rosie. What are the actual numbers?! Not percentages. You know, 1, 2 3 not 89% or 90%. How many out of the 4700 Union members ACTUALLY voted? Not how many of the total number that showed up to vote, voted 'no'. Is that simple for you Rosie?

Posted by: Tothatotherguy Location: Wichita on Aug 9, 2008 at 10:26 PM
"Why are you all concerned about working without a contract? Are you afraid you might be fired for (gasp) not doing your job or poor performance?" For your information and not that it's any of your business, I'm quite proficient at my job. I work alone in my department on piston aircraft and pretty self sufficient at that. "The reality is that aircraft workers have gotten a "free ride" on insurance for many years" Wow, you must think us aircraft workers are a collective pimple on the face of Wichita. How ignorant you must be. What you don't realize is, when the pimple pops, there goes Wichita with the rest of it's machinist hating population. YOU see the concept?? We're just a huge bright shiny pimple on your brittle, little face.

Posted by: FedUp on Aug 9, 2008 at 10:11 PM
Mark B, I have YET to see any threats or violence! Stop making things up! (Fyi: I spoke to a couple of managers and NOTHING is getting done! NOTHING!) If everyone would be honest here...for once...we ALL can admit that we could have sat down with both sides and hashed this out without resorting to a strike. Being that we ARE striking, I'm standing up for what I believe in. I'm NOT scared, like you, but I for one am so tired of the melodramatic over the top, Holier than Thou, narcissistic attitude people are taking! To use terrorism so easily and casually just proves you have become so dormant in your own life, that you have to be so dramatic! Well, don't take it out on us! If this article effects you, please give us your opinion. If it doesn't why waste everyone's time by spewing meaningless drivel that you know nothing about?!

Posted by: HB worker on Aug 9, 2008 at 08:39 PM
What's the point of striker's walking at the gates on Saturday? We love making bets on whether or not there will be strikers and how many. It's become our usual family outing, to go see. I don't know what we'll do when you're all gone. It's kinda like the "Last Striker Standing" and if you honk, you all wave like crazy as if we were supporters. Ha ha Too bad the fun must end for us.

Posted by: Rosie Location: Wichita on Aug 9, 2008 at 08:28 PM
I'm gonna make it real simple for some of ya! 90% rejected the contract offer and 89% gave affirmation to strike. If the contract offer had been HALF WAY DECENT...you wouldn't have seen that kind of solidarity insofar as the vote on the contract and the vote to strike. YES! THE OFFER WAS THAT BAD!! This new company is going to find itself in a lot of hot water with their stockholders, the taxpayers, the FAA, their customers and especially with the military they have contracts with. And why are some people talking about Wal-Mart? Those poor employees that work there can also collect food stamps because the pay is so bad. Wal-Mart is a good example of WHY THERE IS A NEED FOR UNIONS!!!!

Posted by: Oldphart on Aug 9, 2008 at 07:47 PM
Grandma and Really? Neither one of you knows the story, yet you are willing to offer your opinion. That is a right you have. Just some opinions are worth more than others. If you listened to the people that make up the union, to what they are saying, it is not about money. It is about asking the company to honor their own committments. If they had done that these past years, the bargaining unit would have never been so fired up. And as for the scabs, barts, and grandmas, I will pray for you. And for the people that fly in the planes scabs build.

Posted by: mark b Location: salina on Aug 9, 2008 at 07:17 PM
I was on the picket line the other morning and was sickened by the gang like mentality taken on by the union members. Peaceful strike is one thing but threatening peoples lives because they have to cross to support themselves and their families makes me sick to even be a member of the union. I walked off the line because I do not beleive in the methods taken on by the strikers. The majority of you belong in jail for your behavior. Last I knew terroristic threat was against the law. America is land of the free, meaning people are free to go to work without having their lives threatened. Hope your still union proud from your jail cells cuz thats were you will end up with your current methods of terrorism!

Posted by: FYI Location: ICT on Aug 9, 2008 at 07:16 PM
Did that comment hit a nerve? Did you really think that you couldn't be replaced? By Kansas law you can and the rumor is you will.

Posted by: Anonymous on Aug 9, 2008 at 06:56 PM
Why are you all concerned about working without a contract? Are you afraid you might be fired for (gasp) not doing your job or poor performance? I've never signed a contract for employment and have gotten by just fine in my job for more than 15 years. You either do the job the employer asks you to do and get paid what you agree to be paid or you don't work there. Isn't that a fine concept? And the insurance argument is worthless. The reality is that aircraft workers have gotten a "free ride" on insurance for many years. Everybody else has to shoulder higher insurance costs. Now you do, too.

Posted by: Salary Employee Location: Wichita on Aug 9, 2008 at 06:34 PM
Well I will say one thing about what I have witnessed and observed during the first week of the union strike at Hawker Beechcraft. It seems no matter what the media says the union seems to have a lot of support from the community and people driving by on Webb Road. From the inside I can honestly say that no planes are being built. What little is being attempted it appears that the managers have forgotten where they come from looking at the full scrap bins in the hangers and around the plant that are filled with scraped parts!! I can't tell what is going to cost the company more the strike or the parts the supervisors and managers are srapping.

Posted by: Proud Striker on Aug 9, 2008 at 06:34 PM
HBC can hire all the temp help they want. What a smart thing for the company to do! Let's hire temp people who don't know the jobs then pay us the overtime when all the dust settles to fix all the tags made in the process. I can tell you this, it would take anyone at least 2 months to learn my job.

Posted by: Anonymous Location: ict on Aug 9, 2008 at 05:57 PM
OK!!! You have proven my point!!! And, very well I might add!!! Just Remember - Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names and faces can't hurt me!!! Is this really what the Union is all about? Grow up,and stop acting like schoolyard bullies!!

Posted by: FYI Location: Wichita on Aug 9, 2008 at 05:03 PM
A temp tech/mach company is looking for 'experience aircraft workers' to fill a number of positions at a local aircraft company. Guess what the date of posting is? August the 5th. And guess what? This company isn't listing on the IAM temporay job listing. Hmmm, maybe you wont be going back to work.

Posted by: Derrick Location: Douglass on Aug 9, 2008 at 04:56 PM
I have a few facts about unions and outsourcing. It is not the unions making companys outsource. When in the USA the Population: 303,824,646 (July 2008 est.)and the union membership in the USA is: The American Federation of Labor-Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL-CIO) is the voluntary federation of America's unions, representing 10.5 million members, including 2 million members in Working America, its new community affiliate. Now tell me that we are the reason for outsourcing. Ha!! Hardly. We are just a fraction of the united states population. This is just the way big buisness tries to make us think that unions are bad for the economy. All I have to say is that if you are a scab and I find out.....we are no longer associated. Strike that a** One day longer than the company can stand. This is corperate greed at its finest. We make those 29 new vice presidents thier money. I hope they start firing some of the over head and get us what we diserve. A GOOD CONTRACT!GOD BLESS UNION!!

Posted by: Really? on Aug 9, 2008 at 04:56 PM
Proud wife and Oldphart, look up 'hard working' and you WONT find aircraft worker on strike. and while you and yours are crying about pay and benefits, I have to protect you from the bad people in this world. Your ethics scare me.

Posted by: grandma on Aug 9, 2008 at 04:26 PM
To Oldphart -- I agree with Bart. Who is going to want to hire one of you strikers, even temporarily? It seems to be a pretty big logical leap to conclude that because Bart wants to hire reliable people, he's hiring illegal aliens. I'll bet there are lots of reliable potential employees around who are: (1) American citizens or properly authorized to work here; (2) law abiding; and (3) not members of the IAM.

Posted by: know all of your facts on Aug 9, 2008 at 04:00 PM
Find out the truth – www.nlrb.gov Employees who strike fall into 2 classes, ECONOMIC and UNFAIR LABOR PRACTICE STRIKERS. ULP strikers have greater rights of reinstatement. ECONOMIC STRIKERS - Strike to obtain economic concessions, higher wages, shorter hours, or better working conditions. Retain their status as employees and cannot be discharged, but CAN BE REPLACED. If the employer has hired replacements, the strikers are not entitled to reinstatement. If the strikers do not obtain regular and substantially equivalent employment, they can be recalled to jobs for which they are qualified when openings occur after they request reinstatement. ULP strikers - Strike to protest an unfair labor practice committed by their employer. Such strikers can be neither discharged nor permanently replaced. When the strike ends, ULP strikers, absent serious misconduct on their part, are entitled to have their jobs back.

Posted by: TakeHomePay Location: HBC on Aug 9, 2008 at 03:54 PM
The union is a joke! The strike should have happend when we got stuck with a 5 year contract!I will cross the line to take care of my bills and the union can't pay mine so unless they do I will cross. The union at HBC is very weak and relies on the company for all their office needs. The union dues that you pay each month goes where? Why doesn't the union have an office seperate of HBC? Oh yea they buy whistles! Those new hires who elected stay out may want to find a permanent job because they will lose their jobs when they come back! The union will screw it's members if they turn down the same offer again and I will hate the union because my job is one of the 18 to go up in grade. So if HBC offers a contract less than the last one and we get stuck with it then don't blame those that crossed but blame yourselfs (union) for your union leaders stupidity!!!! Oh by the way NEVER I repeat Never compare the union with the Military! Go to combat and you'll see true brotherhood and help others!

Posted by: Proud striking wife Location: Wichita on Aug 9, 2008 at 03:31 PM
Let's get real here. We ALL knew the contract was coming up. So the excuse "I have a family to support" just doesn't cut it. A scab is a scab is a scab! Don't fool yourself, you will be treated that way when all this is over. It was not a surprise to anybody that the contract was coming up. You should have saved for it like some of us did. And Bart, if you don't want to be supportive and offer part time work, fine. Shut up and stay out of it. It's not your job on the line. Are you effected by the strike? Maybe your child or grandchild will one day want a job at HBC, that is one of the many reasons my husband and all the others are doing this. They are not just fighting for themselves but for future employees.

Posted by: jay bootley Location: ict on Aug 9, 2008 at 03:25 PM
i worked on the very first horizon....i bet you dont know the number of the plane.. it was st1.....it was one of the first ones built..so i know what i am talking about....i was put on that line on aug of 2001 and it was supposed to be certified on nov 2001 ....and when did it getcertified.....what what .....2008... we would spend hours and hours jus trying to find the correct blue print ....engineering would change daily ..we had been known to spend 8 hrs looking for the correct rivet..so all you newbies that think it is an easy plane to build wasnt there for all the growing pains..be very glad....and yes cesnna did kick out butts!!!!!!!!! and when you are jus building the king air..it dones take alot of skill due to the fact the planes has been build for over 50 years...sheet metal screw ups can be fixed...dont ever think you are not expendible..i heard some of my co workers say they were irreplaceible whe i worked in flight and they found out the very hard way!@!!!!

Posted by: mike on Aug 9, 2008 at 02:58 PM
there is 'something rotten Demark' about what is being said from the owner and what is really what the union is striking.

Posted by: Oldphart on Aug 9, 2008 at 02:56 PM
Anonymous: Look up the dictionary entry for Scab. There are many types of labels. Some are not very flattering, we did not choose it for you. Why do you have difficulty understanding yours? We all make choices. Not everyone takes the high road and walks the picket line. What you don't seem to understand is how wrong your choice is. ......oh...and Bart? Has the INS come to your door yet? How many employees have you hired that have stolen ID's and stolen SSN's. You don't really care, right? That is the problem with so many of the companies today. They don't see many "wrongs" as their problem. And they don't spend money or address any of these problems till they have to. It has something to do with "bottom line" and "risk analysis" and seems to be on the opposite end of the spectrum from "morality" and "ethics". Oh, and back to anonymous, while you have the dictionary out, look up the word ethics. It has to do with a person doing the "right thing". You should be walking.

Posted by: on strike Location: ict on Aug 9, 2008 at 02:55 PM
You scabs continue to go to work everyday, stand around and bank your checks. When life returns to normal out at HBC, I sure hope you don't need help from those who stood strong to get benefits that you will enjoy. I wouldn't want to be with a question or when you create a tag! Actually, I hope I'm the one who catches your mistake.

Posted by: Alan Location: Plant 4 on Aug 9, 2008 at 02:40 PM
As an after thought....if someone were to tell me that management is handing out infractions for being late....say from Wednesday on.......I would believe it. Can just hear it now.........IF YOU WANTED TO BE ON TIME....THEN YOU WOULD SLEEP IN THE LOT.OR LEAVE AT 1am. Sorry but you know the rules!!.....Corrective action is a part of the production certificate too................I don't think they read that far. All those educated people??.they are the reason the FAA pulled the P/C from the 4000. Tells me engineering hasn't the foggiest idea what they are doing either. This would be a real bad time for an FAA audit for sure........ugh...................my boss told me to do it this way...............hey!!.its in these notes I found.....wait a minute.........those say....1998..........opps. Anyway...its the way we always do it........UNBELIEVABLE!!...can you say Airworthiness directive...all units in the fleet affected!!

Posted by: Alan Location: plant 4 on Aug 9, 2008 at 02:26 PM
To the contractors making the BIG money now..working 70 hours per week. sounds real good on the surface but knowing the confusion that exists on the production floor?.I would imagine you are doing more standing around than than anyone ever does. And your opinions relating to the same?.....well...try those hours for lets say......2 years.........then try it on less than half the money. Maybe then you will be listened to,till then...you got no idea. I had 25 years experience when hired.I still don't make the money you all are thinking new people do, when hired. Those that are...more than earned it. I can't imaging 10 or 15 years having to deal with those kinds of situations that are now inbred into the NORM of the company. Business as usual?...oh sure. If the company is doing business as usual?...they are both top and bottom heavy wouldn't you say.Hope they are happy to continue to do so. From what I have seen?.they don't know how to be constructive...more like destructive.

Posted by: HBC worker Location: Wichita on Aug 9, 2008 at 01:46 PM
I'm probably wasting my time saying this because stupidity can't be fixed. This talk about the company "making" us do this or we "have" to do that is bs. People make their own choices in life. No company drags you from your home, puts a gun to your head and forces you to work for something you don't agree to, YOU do! It's time that people start looking at themselves for where they're at in life, it's no ones fault but the individual. Most union workers are very envious of wealth. It's easier to tear down someone who has achieved than to build their own selves up. To force an employer to pay you more is stupid and mob like, it has nothing to do with the free market and is a huge reason these union jobs go to Mexico and other country's. Most people who are "scabs" are individuals who love individualism and believe in putting in a full day's work. Union members say that we take the money that they negotiated. No, union members "take", "scabs" earn. Now go buy some more lottery tickets!

Posted by: Anonymous Location: ict on Aug 9, 2008 at 01:19 PM
Is the general public aware that there is a "Scab Board" at the Union HQ? Why does the Union expect to be taken seriously when they target those members who did not want to strike? They purposely stirred up members by handing out "Free, Proud Americans" flyers before the strike vote on August 3rd that encouraged the use of the words "Scab" and Strikebreaker". As a "Free, Proud American" every Union member has the right to reject or accept any contract that is being voted on. By the way, how many Union members voted on Aug 3rd? And, don't say 100% because that would be an outrght lie. There are Union members that HAVE to work because they cannot be without a regular paycheck and medical, dental and vision benefits. If you don't Have to work, then why are you (when you're not on STRIKE!)? To label those members with such nasty words is really showing Union brotherhood. Why do you expect support when the Union leadership at HBC encourage such labels and malicious actions?

Posted by: bart on Aug 9, 2008 at 12:36 PM
Part time job? Don't come around to my company. I need reliable people who want to work.

Posted by: Not buying it on Aug 9, 2008 at 12:15 PM
You do realize that only the rich and corporations can buy and fly your planes? And even when the company was running with the old contract- the rich had problems at delivery time with the new product. They are not commerical carriers. The joe Q public will never fly on it. J-Pats is the aim more to the public than the 4000 or whatever it's called. Isn't J-Pats a military project? So what if the rich people's seats or plane falls out of the sky? It's not PUBLIC transport. (May in europe) Maybe the community would have supported this strike with much more gusto if it was something that joe public flies on. By the way, rude picketers,re-read the IAM striking guide. This is suppose to be a 'peaceful' picketline with respect. And the wall of shame (or scabs) you have at the HQ, the State has something called the unemployment line for you. Wait, strikers who get fired or laid off don't get benefits from the State. Darn!

Posted by: spirit worker Location: wichita on Aug 9, 2008 at 12:00 PM
what does it take to get posted?

Posted by: Striker Location: Wichita on Aug 9, 2008 at 11:38 AM
Wow Jay You must know some weak insider who is telling you what the company is telling them to say. Many strikers have family and friends that are working in plant 4 also. Truth is that they are having problem getting the correct prints and figuring out what the hell they are doing.

Posted by: Oldphart on Aug 9, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Jay Bootley, your comments play little sympathy on my ears. However, your knowledge of the 4000 does not ring true. The reason that aircraft is so easy to build right now is clear. Those building it dont know how. Inspection checking and signing off their work may see the errors, but management is leaning real hard to sign off everything they can. Their motto..."We will fix it later, just get it out the door". We should give you free flights in any planes built during these times. I pray for the pilots that have to conduct flight tests during these times. Why dont you ask how many customer 4000's are still flying? You don't understand one of the fundamental principles for maintaining quality. Neither does the company.

Posted by: Hawker Wife Location: Kansas on Aug 9, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Dear Jay- First of all why don't you try reading the post it was 300 not 3000 and if you open you eyes and read you will see my husband found work and we are still living under the same roof that we were before the strike! It is people like you that open mouth and insert foot because you have no back bone to stand for what you believe in. Until you do your research and understand exactly what this stike is all about stay out of these blogs! You can't not spell or make complete sentences so what makes you think you can understand an in depth contract. So go back to your hood house and figure out how so many planes are being built with only 10% of the work force (including managment)crossing that line?

Posted by: jay bootley Location: wichita on Aug 9, 2008 at 10:38 AM
Hawker Wife... if you have a child that takes 3000 per month for meds..i am sorry your child is sick..but you and your husband are fools... believe me ...i know what i am talking about...when i moved here from out of state ..and had no ins for a few months..my wife was sick and we ran up 27,000 in med bills...so if losing everythign you own cuz your ins went up 10 per month ..by all means sleep in your mini van while the union fat cats stay cool and fat ... strength in numbers...hmmm...am insider in plt 4 tells me..all is well and they are building one of the easiest planes to build...so....stay strong ..feeble mind

Posted by: hbc worker Location: east ict on Aug 9, 2008 at 10:33 AM
everyone wants what cessna got....well all you have to do ..is go over to the middle of plt 4 and see a large black plane and look no further ..that is where your cessna contract is.... the horizon.....or now as it is called the 4000 .it was suppose to be certified in 2001 ....and it was ready in 2008....in the mean time cessna certified a plane and we lost money to them... yes this was a RAC plane but it is the main reason we did not get a cessna type contract... if you are holding out for a bonus ..good luck...you might get a free nu way sandwich or coupons for a meal at spangles... the union misled it's members and the negoiating team was demanding too much ..like 1.00 in shift premiums...they did raide it to .45 cents..i remeber when it was .30 cents and people were glad to get it ... and by the way ...dont for a mintue think our union leadrs are gonna have to work temp jobs.....stay strong but dont be a fool either!!!

Posted by: NotCrossing Location: Wichita on Aug 9, 2008 at 10:09 AM
Whether planes are being built or not, I'm not crossing the line without a contract being in place- especially with these foreign owners of HBC slowly trying to turn the workplace into a fascist regime.

Posted by: Hawker Wife Location: Kansas on Aug 9, 2008 at 09:58 AM
Dear Anonymous(fellow union memeber)- What a load of CRAP! We are a family of 6 with one child that requires medication on a daily basis($300a month w/no ins.) and there is NO way my husband is crossing that line. He is NOT sitting at home doing neglected chores, he was out finding himself a temporary job! Learn to budget your money and you would be able to feed your family and still be on strike! Why don't you try teaching you children about sacrifices and standing up for themselves? Teach them that times are not always steak and potatos but sometimes they are PB&J? You pay all of those union dues and for what to become a scab and cross that line? Knowing all the while, others are tightening their belts and fighting for what they believe in? To think that you will benefit too is sicking! Strength comes in numbers and people like you only hurt the outcome of this contract by giving in to the company! That is exactly what they are banking on - SCABS! So who needs to give who a BREAK?

Posted by: eastsider on Aug 9, 2008 at 09:53 AM
Steve-- Since when does Cessna have a plant in Salina? You want Cessna's pay? Hop in your vehicle and drive three hours a day to get it. How many jobs in Salina pay what HBC does?

Posted by: the notorious boc Location: wichita on Aug 9, 2008 at 09:48 AM
why don't all these people complain when our CEO's and executive's around our city recieve their annual bonuses and "atta boy's" for a job well done. think about who in our community really did the job. i realize that not everyone agrees with our cause but don't hate people for trying to get better. instead encourage people to stand together as one and force these large companies to be a little more equal in the distribution of what they recieve from our daily sweat and hard work. not everyone has the oppurtunity to stand up and be heard in their life but i proudly stand with my brothers and sisters during this strike. why not let the company say bring them back 1 day sooner to benefit everyone. i'm out here as long as it takes. stay strong union monday is a big day.

Posted by: outsider on Aug 9, 2008 at 09:40 AM
I think that if HBC cared for thier employees like they say they do, that they would be negotiating by now.

Posted by: HB wife Location: Sedgwick county on Aug 9, 2008 at 09:32 AM
Stay strong union strikers. Don't believe the pay check stories, planes being built, etc. Believe that you need to stay strong for you job and others. This is a test, if the management breaks us the next contract will be even worse. Stay strong and respect your brothers and sisters for whatever reason must cross the picket line

Posted by: Striker Location: Rose Hill on Aug 9, 2008 at 07:39 AM
When the Beech family ran the company, they cared about their employees,the employee's families and the community. HBC is a global corporation. We are just another factory in another town.Their sole purpose is to make as much profit as possible. I see this strike lasting at least three weeks.That is going to hurt both the employees and the company. A prolonged strike will result in the loss of contracts and that isn't good for anyone. On another note, I am curious as to what happened at the negotiations. This is the first time the Union has recommended rejection in many years.

Posted by: ralph Location: central usa on Aug 9, 2008 at 07:14 AM
why doesn,t the union president suspend his weekly pay. he wanted this strike so he could make a name for his self. next time read the contact yourself and make your own decision

Posted by: HB Proud worker on Aug 9, 2008 at 02:55 AM
The union can continue to stay out "one day longer" but in the end they will return along with everyone else under the same contract that we all voted on on Aug.3! Then who will look like the fools?? But at least I will have worked all these days that you all have been out there sweating for no reason.

Posted by: Anonymous Location: Wichita on Aug 9, 2008 at 01:56 AM
From a fellow union member, I agree that some people have to cross the line even though they don't want too. We took these jobs to support our families. Some people cannot afford to stay home and catch up on neglected chores. We have to feed our children. I don't agree with the contract, but I also do not believe in starving my children. Give people a break! They wouldn't cross the picket line if they did not have to. It is harder on them then it is on you. Have some compassion.

Posted by: nonunion Location: wichita, ks on Aug 9, 2008 at 01:34 AM
Anonymous, Do you not realize this has barely made any negative impact on HBC at all. There are still plenty of machinists that are building the planes. Also remember that your supervisors who are non union ed where once in your shoes and are skilled to build planes. How do you like the flybys. Those flybys are to show all of you there is no no impact on the company by you striking. so don't sit there and think that it has deeply effected both sides. I see more and more machinists returning back to work everyday because with the way our economy is it is just completely not affordable to go without all this pay. Whether you are there or not planes will continue to be build and distributed.

Posted by: What's Up With This? Location: Wichita on Aug 9, 2008 at 01:28 AM
How come Rooney and Woods are pulling a check?! Why aren't they going without like the rest of Local 733? Is the Union a goverment office or a representation of the workers? If the workers go without, shouldn't the leaders? Someone prove me wrong and that they ARE NOT getting a pretty hefty salary at that and then I'll back the Union's leadership.

Posted by: Anonymous Location: ICT on Aug 9, 2008 at 01:20 AM
Way to go! You finally got the strike you have been pushing for the past 12 yrs.! I know that you have heard the saying "Live to fight another day." That's what you should have done this time with the economy the way it is! The contract HBC offered wasn't the best but, it wasn't as BAD as the Union negoiating committee would have you believe! Especially with the economy! You are nuts to go on strike! Shame! Shame! By the way, is the union going to pay any of the costs of Cobra plus will they pay for any costs related to medical, dental, or vision care? How does the strike impact Woods or Rooney? Does it hurt them? They still draw a pretty hefty salary while you get $150 a week, AFTER 3 weeks.! The people it really hurts are Union members and their families. Wake up Local 733 and appreciate what you have, It is possible that Raytheon might have been sold to another company other than HBC and you could be standing in the unemployment line. Get a life!

Posted by: Hawker Wife Location: Kansas on Aug 9, 2008 at 12:13 AM
Stay strong union members!! Don't back down, you are making a differnece and the company is feeling the pinch of not having any qualified workers to build planes! STAND PROUD and REMEMBER -- ONE DAY LONGER!!!With support - Hawker Wife

Posted by: Steve Location: Salina on Aug 8, 2008 at 11:04 PM
I work for HBC in salina and I don't believe that we should give in!!!!! We need to stand up and fight for the next generation of employees, they must have the same benefits at us, the 5 days of ETO is BS. As far as the anonymous that thinks we need to give in for less is wrong. REMEMBER what ever the company takes away from us we will never get back. We have lost so much over the past 20 years that we weren't willing to fight for. I don't make the big money out there but I have had to work those 10 hr days 19 straight and it isn't fun. Where is the $3000 dollars that Cessna got that we aren't even offered??? HBC can offer us the same package that Cessna received. They would rather put the money in bonuses for themselves while they keep trying to take away from the people that make them all that money!!! We deserve better and we just need to hold out "1 DAY LONGER!!!"

Posted by: Anonymous Location: Kansas on Aug 8, 2008 at 10:30 PM
It has made a big difference on both sides I think both sides are wishing this hadn't happened and may be we can soon come to an agreement. I think a little tweek on health insurence and some overtime language changes for the alternate shifts such as no more than 10 days required ot when working 12 hr days. You could also give the new hires one or two more days of eto. The union representitives stirred the pot with a big stick at the vote. I don't know what they are getting out of this but it must be alot. I'm ready to get back to building planes.

Posted by: No Choice on Aug 8, 2008 at 10:20 PM
This city should be proud of our union members who have resorted to damaging non striking employees homes and vehicles! There is no compassion for those who do not have a choice but to take care of their family members with severe medical conditions. You have made a choice, but please understand there are those who have no choice but to provide life supporting insurance to family members now. Not everyone that chooses to cross is a traitor, and gang tactics will only further the damage to all.

Posted by: union worker Location: longview ks on Aug 8, 2008 at 10:08 PM
we hadnt heard anything at all...jus hear say from union members that are no higher up then i am...

Posted by: P on Aug 8, 2008 at 08:15 PM
So, fifth day into it.....so how's it going? Do you think it's made any difference yet???

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