Robinson Trial: Day 5
Robinson Trial: Day 5 Save Email Print
Reporter: Cayle Thompson
Email Address: cayle.thompson@kake.com

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Update -- Wednesday, 5:00pm

Court is in recess for the day. Trial will resume Thursday morning at 9:00.

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Update -- Wednesday, 4:00pm

A detective on the case who analyzed the previously mentioned computer takes the stand. He testifies that in reviewing Robinson's search history, he found queries such as "How can I have a miscarriage," "How to kill my baby," and "Kansas Sex Laws."

Authorities say the searches date back to November of 2005, only weeks after Brooks first learned she was pregnant.

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Update -- Wednesday, 3:00pm

A former business mentor to Robinson testifies he turned a computer over to authorities which Robinson had been allowed to use. He also found a note on a desk which Robinson used. On that note was the list: Lime, Sand, Shovel. Prosecutors say those are the utensils you'd need to bury a body.

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Update -- Wednesday, 2:30pm

The next witness on the stand is WPD Homicide detective Lt. Ken Landwehr.

He describes how Brooks body was discovered and removed from her shallow grave in Butler County. The cord around her neck was removed and examined. It was determined the cable came from a gaming system -- a "patch-cord" of sorts, prosecutors say.

He goes through many of the details previously discussed by Det. Tim Relph on Tuesday with regards to Gentry's testimony and aspects which could be confirmed.

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Update -- Wednesday, 2:00pm

Trial resumes after lunch.

Jurors hear a tape recording of a phone interview which Robinson did with a local media outlet in 2006.

Prosecutors say the tape contains a confession on Robinson's part that he is the father of Chelsea Brooks' unborn daughter, Alexa.

Robinson made the call in November of 2006 from jail. It is approximately 15 minutes long.

Robinson says he had nothing to do with the death of Chelsea Brooks or her baby.

However, he says he loved Brooks with all his heart.

Robinson says the first time he heard about Theodore Burnett was after his arrest.

He says he wasn't afraid of Brooks family finding out about his relationship with Chelsea, despite the threat of child rape charges.

Robinson says he doesn't know why Gentry would turn on him and turn him into police when he's innocent of the charges.

Robinson says he doesn't know what happened to Brooks the night she disappeared.

Robinson says Chelsea knew he was out of town on June 9th, 2006, so he doesn't know why she would have told friends she was going to meet up with him.

Robinson said Brooks was an amazing person and a very smart girl who wouldn't let others take advantage of her.

Robinson vowed to figure out what happened to Chelsea.

When asked if he planned to tell Brooks family he was the father of her baby, Robinson said he wasn't certain he was the father. Prosecutors say even if that's true, he does not deny having sex with Brooks.

Robinson said he is 100 percent innocent of capital murder and aggravated kidnapping. He said he loved Brooks too much to even imagine doing such things to her.

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Update -- Wednesday, 12:00pm

The fifth witness of the morning is Shelley Steadman, a DNA expert with the Sedgwick County Regional Forensic Science Center.

She testifies that DNA testing proves the bodies found in the Butler County field were those of Chelsea Brooks and her unborn daughter.

She says further DNA testing suggests there is a 99.9% chance that Elgin Robinson is the true father of the baby. Steadman says Robinson is 181,000 times more likely to be the father than any other man.

However, she says no DNA evidence whatsoever was recovered from the cell phone in Brooks possession the night she died, not even Brooks' DNA. Gentry says that's because Burnett wiped the phone down before throwing it out the window.

Only Brooks' DNA was found on the cord wrapped around her neck. Gentry says that's because Burnett wore gloves when he strangled Brooks.

Jurors in Burnett's case believed Gentry's testimony as the corresponding DNA evidence -- or lack thereof. Jurors convicted Burnett of capital murder this spring. He is now serving a life sentence with no possbility for parole.

Jurors break for lunch at 11:50. Court will resume at 1:30 this afternoon.

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Update -- Wednesday, 11:00am

The fourth witness is Kim Walterscheid. She was Robinson's girlfriend at the time of Brooks' disappearance and murder. Walterscheid says she received several free tickets to Worlds of Fun in Kansas City through her job at QuickTrip. She, Robinson and several friends went to Kansas City the weekend Brooks was murdered.

Walterscheid says the night Brooks disappeared, Robinson began getting phone calls from her friends and family. She says he told them he had no idea where Brooks was and to stop calling him.

Walterscheid also says Gentry and Robinson spoke on the phone several times over the course of the trip. Prosecutors say they have cell phone records that show the two speaking with each other before and immediately after Brooks death. Prosecutors say Robinson knew his trip to Kansas City would be a perfect alibi if Brooks' body was found.

Walterscheid says when she asked Robinson if he was the father of Broooks' baby, he told her it was possible.

During cross-examination by Robinson's defense attorneys, Walterscheid says Robinson's father told him it would be wise for Robinson to keep the receipts from his trip in case authorities needed to question him about his whereabouts the night of Brooks' disappearance.

Walterscheid tells defense attorneys her last conversation with Robinson was in March of this year when he called her from jail.

Going back to the phone calls Robinson received from Brooks' friends the night of her disappearance, Walterscheid tells defense attorneys she was asleep through most of the calls. Walterscheid says she awoke to Robinson becoming irritated by the repeated calls from those looking for Brooks. However, she says he seemed generally concerned about her whereabouts.

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Update -- Wednesday, 10:20am

The third witness is a woman who worked at the Farm Credit Bureau building in downtown Wichita. She says Elgin Robinson used to work as a cashier in the building's cafeteria.

The woman has background in the medical field, and says Robinson approached her one day with a question. She says he mentioned his sister's friend was pregnant and had been kicked in the stomach. He asked if that would kill the baby.

The woman said it may not kill the baby, but that the woman should definitely seek medical attention.

The woman says Robinson told her the friend was only a month or two into her pregnancy. The woman says the conversation took place during the holidays in late 2005. Prosecutors maintain Robinson was actually hatching a plan for Brooks, and that she would have been a month or two into her pregnancy at that time.

Months later, when Brooks was discovered murdered, the woman remembered Robinson's question and went to police.

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Update -- Wednesday, 10:00am

The second witness of the day is Greg Burge, a former WPD Crime Scene Investigator.

Burge was one of the investigators to search the apartment of co-defendant Theodore Burnett. Gentry's testimony during Burnett's trial helped jurors convict him of capital murder this spring. Gentry says Robinson paid Burnett a mix of drugs and cash to kill Brooks. Gentry confessed to driving the car the night Brooks died as Burnett strangled the girl from the backseat.

At Burnett's apartment, investigators recovered plastic gloves and parts of a cable, similar to the one found tied around Brooks neck after her body was discovered. Gentry told police Burnett had worn gloves to help coverup his role in the crime. They also found drug paraphenalia, which supports Gentry's claim that he often did drugs with Burnett. Prosecutors never found any direct physical evidence, such as DNA, to link Burnett to the murder. He was convicted primarily on Gentry's testimony.

This part of Robinson's trial mirrors Burnett's trial almost exactly. In order to convict Robinson, the jury must believe everything Gentry said during his testimony. Prosecutors are painstakingly trying to prove as many details of his testimony as possible.

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Update -- Wednesday, 9:30am

The first witness on the stand today is Butler Co. Sheriff Detective Paul Brown. Brown was the investigator to recover Marissa Drydale's phone in Rose Hill. Drydale loaned her phone to Brooks the night Brooks was murdered. Authorities found her phone in Rose Hill, where Gentry says he drove Burnett, who tossed the phone from the car.

A man mowing the lawn outside a church in Rose Hill discovered the phone and called police. The phone was found smashed into several pieces.

The phone is just one part to Gentry's testimony, but also key to the prosecution's case. Prosecutors say they were able to link Gentry to the crime through cell phone records that showed he was with Brooks the night of her murder.

Prosecutors have the arduous task of proving every detail of Gentry's confession, which includes telling authorities Drydale/Brooks' phone was tossed in Rose Hill. They must convince jurors everything Gentry said on the stand was the truth, all the way down to pointing out Robinson as the mastermind of the murder.

Defense attorneys said at the start of the trial Robinson was out of town and had nothing to do with Brooks' murder. Prosecutors say he planned a trip to Kansas City, knowing he'd need an alibi after leaving Gentry and Burnett in charge of doing the deed.

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Update -- Wednesday, 9:00am

It's day five in the trial of Elgin Robinson, 22, charged with capital murder in the 2006 murder-for-plot of pregnant 14-year-old Chelsea Brooks.

On Tuesday, defense attorneys cross-examined key witness Everett Gentry. Gentry and Robinson were best friends, and it's Gentry who says Robinson enlisted him and Theodore Burnett to kidnap and kill Brooks, all in an effort to keep Robinson from facing child rape charges when Brooks' baby was born.

Today, prosecutors will call witnesses that can help back up Gentry's testimony, trying to prove to jurors he is telling the truth about the murder and who was involved.

Stay with KAKE News and KAKE.com for updates throughout the day.

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    Showcased Comments
    Fire Department: Fireworks Are Illegal In Most Of Sedgwick County
    • Posted By: Park city looked like the first Iraq war last night!!! It was spectacular,the whole sky was lit up waaayyyy into the night in ALL neighborhoods...like it is EVERY year and did not have ONE incident of a feild or house fire! Sorry you people in Wichita did not get to enjoy! If you're good...we might let you come and see us shoot them next year...but thats only if you're good..kiddys.
    • Posted By: StacyThese guidelines are good. However, I'm new to Wichita and I have to say I'm shocked at how many people shoot off fireworks in the city proper and in parking lots of businesses andapartment buildings (like the one I live in). If it's illegal to do this, why on earth is it so commonplace? I was in the military for a few years, about 3 of which were spent in a lot of different areas of the continental U.S., not to mention the nearly 18 years I grew up in mosly Montana. I never before have seen an entire city with so many amateur fireworks displays inside of city limits. Law enforcement, why aren't you enforcing anything?
    • Posted By: AnonymousI agree with Frankie although the sedgwick county fire department says they only enforce the law, they pushed for the fireworks ban. I believe the original was in 1978. I know it was after bottle rockets were made illegal in Kansas. I wish government would quit trying to protect us from ourselves, we need protection from them. I'm sure our tax dollars paid for the signs, putting them up, and then for taking them down stuck all over! KAKE needs to go through it's archives and find the original ban the sedgwick county commissioners signed and also read the constitution it says that we have the right to celebrate our independance with fireworks. For those complaining about fires in rural areas I've lived out in rural sedgwick for over 50 years and the instance of a house or wheatfield fire being caused by fireworks is pretty uncommon. It's a sparsely populated area unlike city living and fireworks tend to go up not shoot out for miles. Farmers intentionally light the stubble after harvest!
    • Posted By: FirefighterFireworks were banned in Sedgwick County in 1978. Why? There weren't enough firefighters and equipment to go around. Calls were waiting for a response. Firefighters came to work at 7:00 and didn't see their station until the following morning. There were was much damage to fire equipment. The County department had a tank truck roll. This type of response had been occuring for several years. This doesn't even speak to the damage to stuctures, possesions and the persons that where injured. The departments and civic leaders said enough,and fireworks were banned. Some of you say we are unamerican. Far from the truth. You have asked us to watch after you and assist in the time of need. Sometimes that means prevetion instead of action. I love fireworks as much as the next person. Fireworks have slowly made it back into many communities. If everyone can prove they have self control and caution when using fireworks then, they may come back everywhere. Stay safe this 4th.
    • Posted By: AnonymousI guess I'm one of the hundreds of others that did not realize ALL FIREWORKS WERE ILLEGAL! (At least For those of us living outside a city limits in sedgwick county). I knew that while some cities Belle Plaine, Clearwater, Haysville, etc.. chose to allow BIG STUFF (the aerials) Wichita did not. The 78' fireworks ban was for the BIG STUFF!! The unincorporated areas had to follow sedgwick county's allowable fireworks same as the city of wichita chose to do. What year did they sneak in NO FIREWORKS AT ALL OF ANY TYPE for unincorporated sedgwick county?? It wasn't in the original ban. Living outside the city limits of any town, even when ALL FIREWORKS were allowed there were no fireworks stands out here, and the news was saying buy where you live, I called the no fire number for the sedgwick county fire department and asked where we should buy fire works that would be legal and I was told in wichita city limits. This is unconstitutional, prejudiced and segregates rural sedgwick county!!!!
    • Posted By: George WashingtonThis is all silly. I am going outside to set off Fireworks.
    • Posted By: SusanOk, I will expect everyone who is upset to show up at the next Sedgwick County council meeting. If you don't even at least call your councilman, than you should not complain.
    • Posted By: ShaunI think that people in the county needs to remember that this day is to celebrate or freedom as a country!!! China gave us fireworks to help US and a COUNRTY celebrate. To me this is UNAMERICAN!!! Yes, i agree that the big ones that can set major fires sould probly not be shot in rural areas. And all though this law don't affect me personally, it still does as I am a soldier and an American. I am proud of my country. Even if I could only shoot off fountains or what ever I still think that is better than nothing. As long as the person shooting them off is doing it on a concrete surface I don't see why they can't have small fireworks!!!!!
    • Posted By: donald otnesMy daughter called me at 10:15 pm on July 2, 2009. She had people setting off fireworks in her housing district. The kids were firing off the ones that sound like a bomb going off. Are people that stupid to let kids have fireworks that could blow up and take a hand off or even there face.
    • Posted By: miss americaMy family is apparently among the wild, irresponsible rednecks in unincorporated Sedgwick county that have shot off fireworks every year on the 4th since I was a baby. It's true there is a need to protect farmers' wheatfields, so I can understand why the county might ban the big fireworks that fly up in the air, and bottle rockets, etc. But, why shouldn't we be able to at least set off the smaller fireworks, such as fountains, that are less dangerous? Why are our families denied the privilege of celebrating the 4th in a safe, fun way just because we live in the unincorporated areas? This fireworks ban on the 4th needs to be loosened up. It's really not fair.
    • Posted By: aThink about this people! Fireworks are loud and anoying! I am so sick of people setting them off late at night while we are trying to sleep! My baby is being kept up by fireworks because people set them off at two in the morning!Please just think about where you are setting them off like close to houses and apartment buildings. Those are not good places to be doing them!
    • Posted By: Firefighters daughterFor those who think that firefighters just "sit around" you obviously have no idea what these people do. Just looking at the 4th, I can recall as a child how we all wondered if my dad would get to finish his hamburger before being called out to yet another of the many fires he went on that day . The work they do isn't restricted to a summer holiday. Think about the gear they wear...heavy coats, boots, air tanks, even on 100 degree days. Take a walk in their boots and face the fires, car accidents, tornado/storms, floods, and other emergencies they must face with courage, calm, and strength in order to save lives and property. As for "washing the truck" and other maintenance that must be done, do you want a rusted out, broken hosed truck showing up at your house because they DIDN't do those things? I hope they do get a chance to relax, eat, sleep, etc. between the emergencies they must face. I want a well rested and ready fire fighter showing up at my house should I ever need one
    • Posted By: rebeccahey does anyone know if the little boy that went into QT has been found? I know this isn't the topic but I just wanted to know.
    • Posted By: h: I believe that fireworks like Black Cats can be used in Derby as well as Wichita (it's been a long time since I've done any here so I wouldn't definitely know). But they might be setting off something bigger like an M50. The main problems they've had is with the ones that burst into showers of colored balls and sparks like we see in the big displays, roman candles, M80s and the ones that spray out sparks. The Eagle Beacon, last year, said that a good rule of thumb is if they shoot out sparks more than about 6 feet from the device then they are probably illegal.
    • Posted By: hwell they are sure shooting them in derby and we're in sedgwick county either they are not banned or the police in derby are not doing anything about the ones that are shooting off fireworks already. Frankly I'm sick of it, the neighborhood kids are shooting them off close to my property and my dogs are having fits, a call to the local police dpt says nothing they can do....so if they are banned in sedgwick county then they should be banned in derby and the derby police dpt needs to start enforcing the ban, if they aren't banned in derby then they need to be, there are other ways of having a good time on the 4th of July without having to endanger your yard, my yard, your life!!!!
    • Posted By: If everyone was a responible person that means for their self and for the one's that have children, then we wouldn't have had these laws made.The population is so high now that the fire departments are on overload because of the people that will not take responsiblity for their actions.And as far as the fire department setting around!!! Let your house be on fire and then have to wait because these people are not at their work area's because you think they are setting around.I would hate for them to be kept busy 24/7. What would happen to our town without them if that were the case.Already the street that I live on is littered with trash from fire works because people are not responsibly.(not all)
    • Posted By: DI completely agree with Anonymous at 9:26. Linda, unless you've been living under a rock, it's been well known for years that fireworks are illegal in the city limits. They make the same announcements every year. They don't sell the "big" illegal fireworks in the city but everyone still goes out of city limits to buy them and then come back home and shoot them off out in the neighborhood streets. I've seen fireworks in my neighborhood that would rival the ones at riverfest and Lawrence Dumont stadium and they aren't legal in the city.
    • Posted By: Cliff: That's true but when they are burned off purposely there are fire control measures in place. When someone sets a fire with fireworks they tend to run away and then it gets out of control. Like I said, I've missed work because of people who do this. The reason why they made them illegal in Sedgwick County to begin with is because most people here are not responsible enough to use them safely. And Linda: They've been telling people every year that they are illegal. Most people just don't pay attention. And they only selll fireworks in Wichita that you can set off in Wichita. That's why they've always said "Shoot them where you buy them".
    • Posted By: RodI'm with 'Anonymous on Jul 1, 2009 at 08:08 AM'... Helps us Obama! We need you to protect us from ourselves! ALL PRAISE OBAMA!!!
    • Posted By: LindaOk, for one I think if they were illegal, than why didn't we know about it along time ago. I bet that the majority of the people that lives in Wichita didn't know this, and I think it is not right to start enforcing it NOW, I mean come on the main reason why people shoot of fireworks is for the kids entertainment, Also if its going to be illegal than why on earth should selling fireworks at the stands not be? People see the signs that fireworks are illegal, but when they are driving around wichita and see firework stands it just tempts them that much more. So I think its not right.
    • Posted By: cliffanonomous at 8;08, fireworks are a tradition on the fourth of july. and the "tinderbox "harvesed wheat fields are usually burnt off this time of year anyway even without fireworks.
    • Posted By: Bottle Rocket Roger: What makes you think being American means you should have the right to set off explosives? For the idiots who think they need to have fireworks: how many of you have to call into work and tell your boss you can't come in because some moron set fire to your house or yard? What about when they go outside the city & set them off in newly harvested wheat fields that are nothing more than tinderboxes at this time of year? Every year for the past six years I've lost pay because idiots cannot control themselves or the fires they set.
    • Posted By: donits really sad,,,,we are not hardly even "independent" anymore,,,the government has "used" up all are rights,,,,,like the ol' saying goes though "just be glad your not getting ALL the government you pay for",,,,,period, end of sentence !!!!
    • Posted By: Anonymous who is coming down on firefighters and their "lazy days of washing the trucks and sleeping and cooking meals" has no clue what firefighters do and how many calls many of the stations get,though many are medical. Firefighters are not exactly unpatriotic joy-squelchers, but they are supposed to educate the general public about fire safety. If you even understood all the job entailed you wouldn't talk like that.
    • Posted By: Bottle Rocket RogerWhen I lived in a town just north of wichita,we were able to shoot fireworks ALL day long for a week..Park City allows fireworks ALL day long for week,NO problems in either town! We celebrate the 4th like americans in these towns! The people that made fireworks illegal in Wichita and hate the fireworks are ALL UNAMERICAN! Go hide in you're basements and shake like a coward..the M80's are coming!
    • Posted By: We need two things immediately. One, a petition to remove this descriminatory 1978 law against residents of the county, and secondly, another petition to remove the authors of this law if they are still in office, and any other person in authority that supports it. I'll drive any distance to sign those petitions. Our tax dollars were used to print and post these signs and will also be used again to remove them, and patrol neighborhoods looking for little kids shooting ladyfinger firecrackers. This travesty of the use of our tax dollars must be exposed with those that have attacked Independence Day.
    • Posted By: BobEnforce the law! Many firewoks are dangerous, destructive, and disturbing--especially to pets.
    • Posted By: I never knew there were so many un-educated people around the state. It even says in the text of the story, that the fire department is not going to be doing extra patrolling, due to staffing. People are very careless with their fireworks in the "uncorperated" area's of the county. You add wind, and some dry wood, or brush.. And you cause a very dangerous situation, and put those "poorly staffed" fire deparments that respond in danger. ****If you live in a town/city in "sedgwick County".. you need to check your local laws. The no fireworks law - is for "uncorprated" - aka *NOT IN CITY LIMITS*
    • Posted By: MichelleCan't we come to a compromise? Make them illigal everyday of the year, except the 4th? I agree with the ones on here that said we are celebrating our FREEDOM! This is what the USA is about. Hotdogs, baseball and fireworks! 8-)
    • Posted By: Kristy"But many like Sedgwick County Resident Michael Dixson don't plan on breaking the law." Seriously - someone who writes for a news station should be familiar with proper grammar usage.
    • Posted By: How ironic it is that it's Independance Day however; they tell you that you can't fire off any fireworks.....at least any that are worth paying money for. Yes, we're slowly on our way to becoming a communist country. I miss Archie Bunker!
    • Posted By: Why even celebrate??? Pretty sad when Amerians can't participate in the tradation and celebration of America's Indepandance. I feel for you rual Sedwick County people. Sedwick County SUCKS!!
    • Posted By: TimThe Fire Department IS NOT encouraging people to call 911 every time they see people shooting fireworks, this will create an unnecessary strain on the 911 system. The problem is being worked on and will take time to get things all straightened out. If you have an emergency or a problem that warrants calling 911 by all means call 911. What is not needed is a call to 911 every time you see someone shooting a firecracker.
    • Posted By: The fire departments are going out of their way with NO FIREWORKS signs just because they don't want to have to work any more than they have to. Little fire here and there disrupts their lazy days of washing the trucks and sleeping and cooking meals!
    • Posted By: topperat one time you couldn't shoot fire works in dodge, now that we can the 2nd through the 5th i think. i havent heard of more fires or whatever it is you think is going to happen if you were to allow.. its the 4th of july, and you stoping people from celebrating. thats dumb if you ask me. besides, people are going to shoot them off no matter what you do.
    • Posted By: FrankieThe Fire Department says it only enforces the law against fireworks in Sedgwick County, but I've lived here since 1938 and I remember that it was the Sedgwick County Fire Department that pushed for the County Commissioners to pass the illegal fireworks law.
    • Posted By: anoymousIt is a little confusing, because Park City has fireworks tents all over, but I thought Bel Aire and Park City were actually their own "cities", and not part of unincorporated Sedgwick County. And they are allowed in Goddard,I checked out the website. I wish there was a central list posted where they are legal/illegal, because I do think there is confusion about this, especially when I thought I heard people in Bel Aire saying they purchased permits in the past. Can anyone elaborate?
    • Posted By: DebbyIf they are illegal why are they sold in the city where they are illegal?
    • Posted By: Isn't it funny how it's called Independance Day but yet big brother wants to tell us we can't shoot fireworks? Screw you big brother!! I'm firing mine off!!
    • Posted By: ElmerI saw on the news that you are asking the neighbors to report the people who are using fireworks to the police. Hitler did the same thing when enforcing his laws. Are we coming closer to socialist government, or are you just trying to create a community that is untenable due to loss of trust in neighbors? I can't believe we are repeating history again.
    • Posted By: bobi think the county is forgetting what we are celebrating, our independence. so they should let us shoot them where you buy them.
    • Posted By: JustinLand of the Free, My hind end. Restrictions yes, understandable. But, all out ban? This is not the America I fought for!!!!! Maybe before long we won't have any independence to celebrate!!! And I'm sure the fire fighters are just having to do what there told. Heck, most of them love fire or they wouldn't be doing there job.
    • Posted By: "fire dept only enforces the law" im sure they had a say in how it was created. thats like saying police dont have a quota when writing tickets when im sure they do. how else are police measured when trying for promotions and raises--its by how many tickets they write, how many crimes they solve, ect. people are gonna shoot off fireworks and worry bout what happens later because this is the one time in the year that we get to do so! plus it helps celebrate america's birthday !!
    • Posted By: MikeaI sure wish there was something we could do about the rednecks who insist on setting off the big heavy skybursts in our neighborhood at 1am every night. Fireworks should be illegal inside the city. Loud car radios are, and fireworks are more dangerous.
    • Posted By: BobOk maybe this is a stupid question, but what is unincorporated Sedgwick County? What is meant by that?
    • Posted By: AJ SimkatuEveryone knows that fireworks that go up in the sky are illegal, even in the city of Wichita. The problem is that nobody cares. Most people think the ban is a ridiculous overreaction to a small problem. People are sick of the nanny state telling us what we can and can't do with our own lives and property. What's next, ban skydiving, skiing, riding dirt bikes, mountain climbing? The government needs to mind its own business and stay out of ours.